"Red Staters"

[Y2A]

I mean, all that time he spent in ivory league school it sounds like he didn't take one speech course while he was there sometimes.

Ivory league? Is that you G.W? Just kidding man

[PowerManDL]

While in some rural areas, I'm sure the average Bush voter was someone who drove from their Baptist church in a pickup truck with a rebel flag sticker on the back, I find it intriguing that anyone would use that steriotype to blanket-cover the entire spectrum.

And this is really my whole issue for creating the thread.

The Kerry camp, at least a lot of those most vocal about it, seem to be using this as their platform for why the country sucks, is going to be a fascist nightmare, etc etc.

All I'm suggesting here is that there's more than one reason that Bush pulled this off, and condemning over 50% of the country as "****ing morons" for voting that way is short-sighted, and in many ways it's that attitude which indicative of just *why* Kerry didn't win.

Just for the record, I don't support Bush any more than I did Kerry. I'm about as neutral as could be....I'm just trying to explore the other side of the mantra that's being tossed about in the post-election weeks.

[TBone4Eva]

TBone4eva, and the video is not fumbled with?, allright, I give, but I still have a hard time believing he said that saying wrong, he seems like an intelligent guy, and Ive read he has a very high IQ.

Here you go Rock. A link to the video:
http://media.brainthink.com/video_te...hfool-low.mpeg

[TBone4Eva]

Ivory league? Is that you G.W? Just kidding man

Damn, I guess the fool me really can't be fooled again.

[galileo]

That may be a fair assumption at the 2 extremes, but I have a hard time taking any of the exit polls seriously, especially after what we saw this past election.

Yeah, strange how people trended one way then the electronic flawed polling machines that had 1100 accounted discrepencies (which meansthousands of votes) showed a different tale. 1100 discrepencies in any election is bull****. We're taking the voice away from the people with flawed, unaudited systems.

[JiggaHertz]

Yeah, strange how people trended one way then the electronic flawed polling machines that had 1100 accounted discrepencies (which meansthousands of votes) showed a different tale. 1100 discrepencies in any election is bull****. We're taking the voice away from the people with flawed, unaudited systems.

Oh yeah, I forgot the election was rigged.

[galileo]

Oh yeah, I forgot the election was rigged.

No one said rigged, but it sure as hell wasn't executed with voter interest in mind. Any company worth two ****s would've had these machines audited and the testing would've been extensive enough to completely eliminate problems such as were seen. I mean, how does a county with 600 people register 5000 votes? You think that's fair?

[Tryska]

In Cobb County GA, we are fighting a court battle to no longer have evolution taught in public schools without having creationism taught too.


i think this is a big part of "blue state" frustration.


or perhaps "blue people" frustration. i know it's a big part of mine.

i also don't think this is so much a fact that people are dogmatically in support of kerry, or think he would work magical wonders once he got into office, so much as stem the tide of insanity we're currently experiencing, with more to come.

Kyoto Protocol is another example. dubya says global warming and the greenhouse effect don't exist.


currently the US has 5% of the worlds population and is responsible for 25% of it's pollution. we are a rogue state when it comes to cleaning up after ourselves.

and the "ownership society"? it's bollox. it's a pretty name for all of us subsidizing publicly traded companies by investing in their success with our retirement money. I've been looking at my 401K statements lately....it's not working so well.

[PowerManDL]

In Cobb County GA, we are fighting a court battle to no longer have evolution taught in public schools without having creationism taught too.


i think this is a big part of "blue state" frustration.


or perhaps "blue people" frustration. i know it's a big part of mine.

i also don't think this is so much a fact that people are dogmatically in support of kerry, or think he would work magical wonders once he got into office, so much as stem the tide of insanity we're currently experiencing, with more to come.

I agree with you completely here, as I think you well know.

I just can't see how something as trivial as replacing one man would have any effect on it. The trend is well beyond the ability of any single administration to replace, and frankly at this point I think it's out of our hands.

Kyoto Protocol is another example. dubya says global warming and the greenhouse effect don't exist.


currently the US has 5% of the worlds population and is responsible for 25% of it's pollution. we are a rogue state when it comes to cleaning up after ourselves.

I'm honestly not convinced it does, and I don't agree with Kyoto myself. It was a lame-duck treaty designed for the "feel good" effect. I'm actually with Dubya on this one.

and the "ownership society"? it's bollox. it's a pretty name for all of us subsidizing publicly traded companies by investing in their success with our retirement money. I've been looking at my 401K statements lately....it's not working so well.

Long-term investing only works well over the....long-term. Personally I'd much rather have my retirement money in stocks and/or mutual funds than having it go to pay this generation's elderly.

[galileo]

Long-term investing only works well over the....long-term. Personally I'd much rather have my retirement money in stocks and/or mutual funds than having it go to pay this generation's elderly.

Do you know anyone who relies on this? What if it was your parents? Like any other socio-personal issue, it only matters when it hits home.

[PowerManDL]

Personally I do.....but I've had the foresight to invest ahead of time, as have my parents and grandparents.

Or are you asking about reliance on social security?

If so, that's my biggest beef with the system...it's made several generations of people that rely almost exclusively on a system that could never have worked in the first place.

If people were investing privately, even if it were gov't mandated accounts, we'd not have the issues with SS becoming insolvent, not to mention the pay outs would actually be a liveable source of income.

[Tryska]

what galileo said.


and as far as the Kyoto Protocol - the fact of the matter is, whether it's useless or not, it's a global initiative. rather than trashing it and telling the other nations to f*ck off, we would have been better suited, working with it, and changing it from the inside.

as it stands, we ignore it, and gleefully flout it, giving the impression that it just doesn't matter.


as for the one guy being able to change anything....sure, not much, but it takes one guy leading a nation to veto anything not in our best interests. Also that one guy is instrumental in repairing international relations.

and you can say working we don't need to work with anybody else, we're america, we're not beholden to the french blah blah blah whatever the conservative rhetoric is on international cooperation, and i'll tell ya you're wrong.


if you think the rest of the world really lets bullies go unchecked, i will refer you to Manhattan circa 9/11/2001.

[MixmasterNash]

Y'all do know that Bush supporters/red staters are QUANTIFIABLY more ignorant?

A group at UMD redently found that:
70% of Bush supporters think we have found evidence of a strong connection between Saddam and al Qaeda.
1/3 believe WMDs were found in Iraq.
1/3 believe that a majority of the world supports our war in Iraq.

Screw values. They're secondary from being a total f**king moron.

So, we have the modern Republican party, which seems to be comprised of:
- Some wack job Christians.
- A lot more easily confused Christians.
- Some crazy Jews and gay and black people.
- A lot of libertarians/anti-tax people who just want to be left alone/hate government.
- Rich people.

I would say that the blue staters:
- Hate the wack jobs.
- Feel sorry for the rest of them voting against their own social and economic good.
- Don't understand these folks. (Maybe they're black, gay, Jews for Jesus?)
- Think these people are wrong, politically speaking.
- Are jealous of/hate these people for their capitalistic/criminal behavior.

[PowerManDL]

Nash, you do realize the irony of making that post in light of my original question in this thread, correct?

[galileo]

Personally I do.....but I've had the foresight to invest ahead of time, as have my parents and grandparents.

Or are you asking about reliance on social security?

If so, that's my biggest beef with the system...it's made several generations of people that rely almost exclusively on a system that could never have worked in the first place.

If people were investing privately, even if it were gov't mandated accounts, we'd not have the issues with SS becoming insolvent, not to mention the pay outs would actually be a liveable source of income.

I'm referring to reliance on social security. My parents were good American citizens, investing into America. My father was a hardworking (45 years in a steel mill) union laborer who expected two things when he retired at 62.5 - a pension from the mill and social security that he paid into.

With the strongest industry in the world (as touted at the time) bankrupt in almost every facet, he receives his monthly pension of $110. On top of that, losing out on some important medicare and social security benefits, they've been reduced to delivering newspapers to keep afloat. Approaching 75 years old, one should not be delivering newspapers.

Just like the 401k's of today, they were told the best method for saving for retirement. At the time, this was investing in America and their company.

What's the answer? It sure as **** isn't spending our SSI money for war. Yes, there is need for reform - but if it was that simple then it would've happened by now. A sunset period will need to be set and a lot of people will lose out on the money they paid into this dying system. Is it fair to anyone? Hell no, but I at least have an alternate means of handling my retirement so I don't have to work at Wal*Mart when I should be traveling and living the golden years of my life to the fullest.

[MixmasterNash]

Nash, you do realize the irony of making that post in light of my original question in this thread, correct?

WTf, you think I actually read stuff before I post? Hmmm... going back to look now

Edit:
Okay, my point was two fold:
1) This is how blue staters see red staters. Not necessarily my personal beliefs.
2) Red staters really are, uh, MORE dumb than blue staters, all arguments about values and beliefs aside. So, should the Dems try to convert/convince/flee from them?

But the larger point that I believe in is that the electoral college is a crock of poop. 70,000 voters in Ohio go a different way, and we've got a different President, so it's not as if there is any sort of overwhelming victory or loss either way.

[PowerManDL]

What's the answer? It sure as **** isn't spending our SSI money for war. Yes, there is need for reform - but if it was that simple then it would've happened by now. A sunset period will need to be set and a lot of people will lose out on the money they paid into this dying system. Is it fair to anyone? Hell no, but I at least have an alternate means of handling my retirement so I don't have to work at Wal*Mart when I should be traveling and living the golden years of my life to the fullest.

I agree with you completely....and frankly, I'm not even relying on 401k's to make my retirement. What I have set aside is all private investment, and the majority of it will remain so.

Personally I'd take the hit in the sunset period if it'd end up fixing things in the long term....I've never agreed with social security, and it's becoming more and more obvious why it was a bad idea in the first place.

[shootermcgavin7]

What happened to make some of the anti-Bush crowd, several of whom I had had intelligent debates with several times over the past few months, go completely off the deep end and post nothing but angry nonsensical rants?

[MixmasterNash]

What happened to make some of the anti-Bush crowd, several of whom I had had intelligent debates with several times over the past few months, go completely off the deep end and post nothing but angry nonsensical rants?

Uh, 'cause we're angry? Not Ann Coulter crazy bitch angry, but getting there.

[Gyno Rhino]

This "red state" and "blue state" nonsense goes to show one thing:

BOTH sides are fascist - period.

[MixmasterNash]

Anyway, as for retirement, I hope all the kids reading this are rocking some Roth IRAs with max contributions. With the magic of compounding interest, 2-3k+tax a year starting at age 25 will leave you with $1 million cash, tax free at retirement age. Of course, 30-40 years from now, $1 million dollars might just buy a nice South Korean car.

Edit:
Gyno, yes, we know you're happy being a pink and frilly stater.

[Tryska]

I'm referring to reliance on social security. My parents were good American citizens, investing into America. My father was a hardworking (45 years in a steel mill) union laborer who expected two things when he retired at 62.5 - a pension from the mill and social security that he paid into.

With the strongest industry in the world (as touted at the time) bankrupt in almost every facet, he receives his monthly pension of $110. On top of that, losing out on some important medicare and social security benefits, they've been reduced to delivering newspapers to keep afloat. Approaching 75 years old, one should not be delivering newspapers.

Just like the 401k's of today, they were told the best method for saving for retirement. At the time, this was investing in America and their company.

What's the answer? It sure as **** isn't spending our SSI money for war. Yes, there is need for reform - but if it was that simple then it would've happened by now. A sunset period will need to be set and a lot of people will lose out on the money they paid into this dying system. Is it fair to anyone? Hell no, but I at least have an alternate means of handling my retirement so I don't have to work at Wal*Mart when I should be traveling and living the golden years of my life to the fullest.

My folks are essentially in the same boat. Except that my dad was a highly paid professional who owned his own business. my folks set aside in IRAs, had the money market funds, had the stock market investments, were prepared.....

and then my dad got diagnosed with Parkinsons.

he had to stop working very early in his career. but he had a decent disability check coming in. so my folks kept investign that money too.

now they are on a limited income, that's got to last them, my mom is working as real estate broker, and actually looking at going to work at disney or wal-mart so she can get some extra money, and maybe god-willign some benefits (not at wal-mart tho). the money they have now, has slowly dwindled and they are on a tight budget. these medicare reforms have pushed my dad prescription bill up to 1200 a months.

if it weren't for social security, they prolly would be living hand to mouth within the next couple of years. my mom gets no social security and has no health insurance. for her to be covered it would cost 700 a month. that's money that needs to go to dad's prescriptions now.

[shootermcgavin7]

Of course, 30-40 years from now, $1 million dollars might just buy a nice South Korean car.

Yeah, because inflation has been obviously running rampant the last 15 years or so.

[galileo]

I agree with you completely....and frankly, I'm not even relying on 401k's to make my retirement. What I have set aside is all private investment, and the majority of it will remain so.

Personally I'd take the hit in the sunset period if it'd end up fixing things in the long term....I've never agreed with social security, and it's becoming more and more obvious why it was a bad idea in the first place.

401k is a large part of my retirement investment at the moment as it is flexible and allows me to pick fixed rates or higher-gain ventures.

I will diversify as I get older, since I am at a place in my life where money isn't exactly a plentiful enough to invest without my company's support. (They match 4% and drop profit sharing money into it each year, which is $6-10k).

[MixmasterNash]

Yeah, because inflation has been obviously running rampant the last 15 years or so.

I think it's safe to say that we'll see a period or two of high inflation over the next 40 years, don't you?