Abuses of the Koran

[Brawl]

I have a hard time even having any sympathy for those people when they say nothing of the muslim terrorists bombing a mosque and the devout worshippers and all the Korans inside into oblivion .

Not to mention when the muslims destroyed 2000 year old buddhist statues and burned the burial place of joseph or whomever in Jeruselem after agreeing to watch over it .

I would say that that is a worse violation than US interogators kicking or throwing water on the Koran .

Hey ... maybe I'm wrong .

[MixmasterNash]

I have no problem with our military pooping on the Koran or whatever in the ethical sense, only that it won't really help extract any information anyway, just like physical torture is fairly worthless. Indeed, the activities carried out in Gitmo and Iraq and Afghanistan were all counter to the written documentation and standards on interrogation, which were developed based on experiences in WW2 and Vietnam. So, moral or not, it's just plain stupid and ineffective.

I do have a problem with our government lying to the public, pretending it didn't know about these abuses while castigating a basically accurate Newsweek report, blaming the media for murder carried out by looney toons fundamentalists, and trying to kill the story by releasing it on Friday night.

The civilian leadership of the Pentagon and Whitehouse are liars and dissemblers (ahem, Mr. "Vocabulary" President). More to the point, and this is what Americans should be concerned with, they're basically incompetant at fighting the war on terror and in Iraq.

The military has usually been right but they've been overruled and punished when they speak out (e.g. Shinseki), especially when it's the truth.

[BilltheButcher]

Ya, don't they shred the bible when you fly into Saudi Arabia and you get imprisoned if you speak about Christianity in most middle eastern countries. But tolerance is what the USA is all about, I guess, maybe it is not as great as everyone would want and maybe not as controlled as many would want.

This crap about abusing the Quran is a minority view IMO and it sells magazines and papers. It pisses the majority of people off, so they will continue to watch tv or buy the paper. I mean chopping peoples heads off, hanging mutilated bodies from bridges and burning them, just can't seem to get the air time, that a female soldier pointing at a group of piled up prisoners. Which one is worse?

[BCC]

It's a book...made of paper...I say get over it.

[darius19]

People take religion too seriously...they need to straight chill and stop worrying.

[SalahG]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[darius19]

I always thought two negatives make a positive...weird...

[mrelwooddowd]

I think it's between God, and the offenders..in all situations. I don't think the soldiers should be punished any more than disobeying orders would merit. I mean, church and state are separate...wtf?

[darius19]

I think it's between God, and the offenders..in all situations. I don't think the soldiers should be punished any more than disobeying orders would merit. I mean, church and state are separate...wtf?

I theory yes, the are supposed to be...but are they? Hell no...let me show you:

I pledge allegience
to the us of a
and to the republic for which is stands
one nation
under god

Oh and not lets forget how bush doesnt want to persue stem cell research because its against "gods will" or whatever bull**** he said. Like I said, the list goes on. Church and state are NOT seperate.

[SW]

^ Let's also not forget that leftist organizations like the ACLU try to remove markers like the pledge and statues that have CHRISTIAN (otherwise they wouldn't care) leanings to keep up church and state separate.

The reason Bush doesn't like stem cell research is because you must take it from a bundle of cells that, if left alone, would be a human. At least that's the official word.

The God thing, it could be ANYONE'S God.

[meltedtime]

You voted in a "born again" christian and you honestly expect a separation of church and state?

[mrelwooddowd]

I don't expect anything, but soldiers are government employees, and if the government is promoting separation, they need to set some examples.

[MixmasterNash]

People, seriously, you think that abuse of a stupid holy book is the real issue?

Who cares? It's a proxy for the real battles being fought both within and between governments. No one actually cares that Korans are being abused.

...

So, how about the fact that our military is commiting homicide and torture, and it's been approved up through the highest level of government?

[darius19]

^ Let's also not forget that leftist organizations like the ACLU try to remove markers like the pledge and statues that have CHRISTIAN (otherwise they wouldn't care) leanings to keep up church and state separate.

The reason Bush doesn't like stem cell research is because you must take it from a bundle of cells that, if left alone, would be a human. At least that's the official word.

The God thing, it could be ANYONE'S God.

I dont belive in god...so it is mixing religion with state...whats your point?

[Gyno Rhino]

Don't care.

[shootermcgavin7]

under god

This wasn't a part of the original pledge. Eisenhower put this in in 1954 during the big Anti-Commie sentiment in the US, saying "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

I would dare to say that church and state have been more seperate the past 15 years than they've ever been.

[MM]

The issue is our military doing stupid crap, not to what stupid crap they're doing it.

[MixmasterNash]

I would dare to say that church and state have been more seperate the past 15 years than they've ever been.

Perhaps. If so, great!!! I would say as a general trend, yes, but Bush policies have significantly increased state-church interaction recently. Indeed, it's measurable in the billions.

If you want religion in government, then government will be in religion.

[BilltheButcher]

So, how about the fact that our military is commiting homicide and torture, and it's been approved up through the highest level of government?

Do you have proof that they are commiting homicide? I am sure they have while extracting info, but didn't know if there was an actual Newsweek type story out there.

It's funny how the loud minority wants the military and gov't to fight terrorists with both hands tied behind there back. We will have another attack on US soil at some point, I can't wait for all the bleeding hearts to be screaming why didn't we know.

[MixmasterNash]

Do you have proof that they are commiting homicide? I am sure they have while extracting info, but didn't know if there was an actual Newsweek type story out there.

It's funny how the loud minority wants the military and gov't to fight terrorists with both hands tied behind there back. We will have another attack on US soil at some point, I can't wait for all the bleeding hearts to be screaming why didn't we know.

It's funny how people happily accept violations of the Geneva Conventions, are willing to sacrifice American ideals, and continue to pretend that we're fighting "terrorism."

What's really sad is how political affiliation is now more important than patriotism. I'm certain if a Democrat were doing the things the Bush administration were doing, all of the Republicans would be screaming their heads off, much like they did during Kosovo. Same goes for the Democrats -- they're Clinton apologists too. The difference is that Kosovo was a marginal success and Iraq is a horrible mess. I'm much more comfortable with an oppositional press and a suspect public. So why do so many people blindly support one side or the other? Why do so many who were suspicious of big goverment in the 1990's simply wave off the greatest expansion of government powers and size in decades?

I'm a pro-interventionist, internationalist who happens to think that invading a number of middle eastern countries is probably the right foreign policy, regardless of "terrorism." But we then invaded the wrong country, were lied to about the reasons for doing so, and our military has been underfunded and led incompetently at the highest levels.

Oh, and by the way, the Army is currently investigating thirty-plus homicides in Iraq and Afghanistan, all of which were prisoners in detention: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May21.html

[BilltheButcher]

Oh, and by the way, the Army is currently investigating thirty-plus homicides in Iraq and Afghanistan, all of which were prisoners in detention: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May21.html

The Washington Post, I think I may believe the Bush adminstration before i'd believe anything that came from them. However, I agree with basically everything you said, but I don't see the good in prosecuting our soliders over decisions they have to make (ie. the one guy who shot that one Iraqi while someone was filming). I'm an eye for an eye type of person, they provide no quarter so there for they should receive none. And I am also tired of the press and hollywood brow beating the US public to be ashamed for being American. But as you say both sides pretty much suck.

[MixmasterNash]

The Washington Post, I think I may believe the Bush adminstration before i'd believe anything that came from them. However, I agree with basically everything you said, but I don't see the good in prosecuting our soliders over decisions they have to make (ie. the one guy who shot that one Iraqi while someone was filming). I'm an eye for an eye type of person, they provide no quarter so there for they should receive none. And I am also tired of the press and hollywood brow beating the US public to be ashamed for being American. But as you say both sides pretty much suck.

You're confusing issues. The soldier who shot some insurgent on the battlefield, even though they weren't necessarily a threat, is not the issue. The fact that 30+ detainees, some of whom have been confirmed to be totally innocent, have been murdered via torture while imprisoned in US controlled facilities is the issue. Please note that the conditions, aka "stress positions," that directly led to their deaths were newly authorized by SecDef Rumsfeld and then Whitehouse Counsel Gonzales. Military JAG officers determined that a number of these policies were improper and they were eventually rescinded.

The ARMY is investigating the homicides, not the Washington Post.

Why would you believe the government by default? Don't you really mean you believe Republicans, and reflexively reject the Post report because you think they run stuff counter to your political views? Do you believe the government should be trusted by default? Does the press have a role in monitoring the government? Do you really think it is un-American to question the actions of our government?

[TwiloMike]

^ Let's also not forget that leftist organizations like the ACLU try to remove markers like the pledge and statues that have CHRISTIAN (otherwise they wouldn't care) leanings to keep up church and state separate.

The reason Bush doesn't like stem cell research is because you must take it from a bundle of cells that, if left alone, would be a human. At least that's the official word.

The God thing, it could be ANYONE'S God.

Not the anteists' "god" nor GodS of those who don't care for monotheism. Don't forget, also, that the ORIGINAL pledge had no reference to god. The reference was added in te 1950's during the Red Scare (and "In God We Trust" on your $$$ was added then also. We had secular cash with a different slogan prior to that).

[TwiloMike]

I don't expect anything, but soldiers are government employees, and if the government is promoting separation, they need to set some examples.

If it was up to the corrent government I think that the separation would be done away with very quickly.

[Sug]

If the mother of a child has an abortion during the 3-9 days after concieving, that bundle of mass could be used in stem cell research. REmember it is up to the mother to decide that SHE wants an abortion and to use the microscopic dot for scientific study, not leftist organizations. 0-6 months fetus has no rights or protection, 6-9months mother cannot have an abortion, considered viable able to survive outside of mothers womb.

Anyway I totally agree with MixmasterNash. How can you 100% agree with whatever the government says, you really think they tell the whole truth.