Baby Got Back by MariAnne Anderson - Feb 18th 2006

[Built]

Weight gain doesn't depend on strength! It depends on diet!

It sounds to me like you need to eat more!

Read the Hypertrophy primer. You may find that information helpful.

[Scorpion32]

Thank you for your help! I learned a lot this evening!

[Built]

Oh good!



Now go - eat up and get HYOOGE!

[civrob]

ok i have a quick question.

how long on average does the workout last. Im guessing with doing a 4 day split workout the sessions are quite short.

Im taking this routine a day at a time.

Day one, ive selected the following

T-bar rows - 10*/8/8/6
Dumbell press - 10*/8/8/6
standing calves - 8/8/8/8

* means warm up. last set at 6 will generally notch it up a weight and hit close to failure. Is it me or is the exercise a little short?

[Built]

Civrob - you're skipping the 5x5s?

Read the summary at the end of the article - you might find that helpful.

Workout usually takes me under an hour. Longer if I make friends.

[civrob]

I misinterpreted the workout... ive had another go here

Thickness back (as labelled horizontal pulling)
T-bar rows - 5x5
Bent-over rows 10*/8/8/8

Chest
Dumbell press - 10*/8/8/8
standing calves - 8/8/8/8
abs weighted crunches 8/8/8

* means warm up. Could i change t-bar rows for regular deadlifts? Where can i find more info on the 5x5 range?

[Built]

T-bars are fine.

Read the hypertrophy primer sticky for stuff on the rep ranges.

[civrob]

I read it up hypertrophy primer just did a quick search,

did my first session in the gym today with BGB... must say its more complex than the last routine which was a variation of wbb1. I understand more now about the choices in bgb.

Onwards and upwards now

[Built]

Lemme know how it goes for you, civrob.

[snow]

I offered this as a workout routine to my friend and he said something to the effect of being concerned about working two major muscle groups at the same time, i.e. chest/back. Also, said something about muscles not getting enough nutrients with the way this is set up. What is he talking about? I'm imagining he doesn't know.

[Built]

You lost me with the muscles not getting enough nutrients.

That's awesome.

The muscles worked are agonist antagonist pairs. There are numerous advantages to training this way. Your friend needs to do some reading.

[snow]

You lost me with the muscles not getting enough nutrients.

That's awesome.

The muscles worked are agonist antagonist pairs. There are numerous advantages to training this way. Your friend needs to do some reading.

I think he wanted to pretend to know what he was talking about.

[Portboy]

Sorry! Yet another question, just wanna make sure i'm not gonna kill myself.

First of all, i love this split! In comparison to what i used to be doing: 4 excercises for basically everything, no legs, and always 4 sets of 10 reps, it's a real motivation booster because i don't actually have todo as much...also i love deadlifting and squatting (which i never did before).

I added another leg day, (before day 1), simply because i HATE sucking at squats, and unfortunately, i do not do good mornings, mainly due to the fact that i don't want to explain to everyone in my gym that i am not attempting to squat, and that i am in fact doing GM's.

Anyhoo, my question is:
Would it be possible to dedicate each week to different types of efforts (or whatever the following is called)? For example, one week do ME bench, the next week do DE bench, then the week after do RE bench?

My plan for doing legs 3 days a week, and squatting on each of those days was to basically max out on one day, speed work on the other, and higher reps on the other.

Could i do this? Would it work? Or have i once again completely misunderstood?

Thanks in advance.

[Built]

Are you talking about a Westside-type paradigm? I'm not 100% clear of what it is you intend to do.

I am nowhere near well-versed in conjugated periodization, but many of our members are. That being said, the principal concept I illustrate in about in BGB is a particular arrangement of push and pull movements. I set it up with 5x5s and 3x8-12s, but it's by no means the only way to do so.

My feeling is that conjugated periodization would be a great way to apply these movements. I'd welcome input on people who train this way. Hell, I may try it myself for a change of pace!

[Portboy]

Are you talking about a Westside-type paradigm? I'm not 100% clear of what it is you intend to do.

I am nowhere near well-versed in conjugated periodization, but many of our members are. That being said, the principal concept I illustrate in about in BGB is a particular arrangement of push and pull movements. I set it up with 5x5s and 3x8-12s, but it's by no means the only way to do so.

My feeling is that conjugated periodization would be a great way to apply these movements. I'd welcome input on people who train this way. Hell, I may try it myself for a change of pace!

I know i'm still a serious n00b, but i'm pretty sure that the words 'conjugated perdiodization' are kind of what i mean.

I'll try and put it more simply.

Take bench press, for example:
Week 1 do:
Maximal Effort Bench Press (on horizontal push/pull day, ofcourse)
Either working up to a 1RM, or keeping weight high, reps low.

Obviously followed by the rest of the split for that week.


Then on week 2 do:
Dynamic Effort Bench Press
A certain percentage of your 1RM for speed work (i think thats what dynamic effort is).

Again, obviously followed by the rest of the split.

Week 3 do:
Repeated Effort Bench Press
Again, a lower percentage of your 1RM for reps, to failure (?).

Obviously followed by the rest of the split.

I just took bench press as an example to make it look simpler, i tend to ramble on!

Sorry if i don't know what the hell i'm talking about.

[Built]

Portboy, we're both newbs here - I haven't tried this approach either.

So would you do this for the horizontal pulling movement as well for those days? Any Westside aficionados care to chime in here with suggestions?

[Portboy]

Portboy, we're both newbs here - I haven't tried this approach either.

So would you do this for the horizontal pulling movement as well for those days? Any Westside aficionados care to chime in here with suggestions?

Actually i was only thinking about doing it to assist and hopefully improve the 'big three' lifts, but obviously i'm sure it can expand into other movements too.

Gah! I don't know.

[Built]

<Issues the Bat Signal for experienced Westsiders>

[Bob]

Actually i was only thinking about doing it to assist and hopefully improve the 'big three' lifts, but obviously i'm sure it can expand into other movements too.

Gah! I don't know.

Hey Portboy.. Built asked me to check in here and see if I could help..
From what I'm reading above, it sounds like you are trying to combine the BGB program with a Westside/conjugated periodization type of effort. SOunds interesting...

But what worries me, is your statements like above... you really got to know what your want to do first. So I went to your journal and cut out these snippets - from your Jan. 1 2007 post: (and it might actually be better to cary on this conversation there... but for now..)

I've been lifting for about a year now, only 6 or 7 weeks of that has been serious, since i: started BGB, realised i had to train legs, and realised that i actually had to eat to get bigger!
Current stats
Age: 17
Bodyweight: 170lbs (77kg)
Squat: 176lbs x 8 (80kg)
Deadlift: 264lbs x 4 (120kg)
Bench: 198lbs x 1 (90kg)

i basically make it my mission each day to eat as much as possible. I think i'm supposed to be aiming for about 3000 to 4000 calories (attempting a bulk), maybe just reaching 3000, but probably an average of about 2000.

My goals, by the end of the year are:
Deadlift: 396lbs (180kg)
Squat: 308lbs (140kg)
Bench: 264lbs (120kg)

And I see recently you've got new PRs in Squats = 100kg/220lbsx5 and DLs = 140kg/308lbsx2... so this is fantastic news.. and great progress.

So with about 4-5 months of using BgB, you made it about half way to your very aggressive goals. And now you want to change things up. Does all this sound Right?

If so.. here would be my advice... based mainly upon your age and goals.

You are 17, almost NOTHING you do in the weightroom is going to be WRONG or hurt you ((unless you use bad form)). Especially if you eat enough. You will gain both mass and strength... you gotta love youth.

However, although you want your BIG 3 to increase significantly, you don't actually say that you want to compete in a PL competition. Maybe somewhere else you do...

So basically you are creating yourself worry for NO reason. Why? You are progressing!! You have gain some weight - so I assume mass. Stop worrying!!!

If I was going to combine the 2 programs, I might do it a bit differently. Keep the BGB formula, but instead of spliting up ME, DE and RE across weeks, I might split them up across workouts.. (Westside/conjugated periodization says not to do the same effort twice in a row).. perhaps something like this:

Week 1:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
ME Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - DE QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
RE Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – ME HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Week 2:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
DE Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - RE QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
ME Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – DE HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Week 3:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
RE Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - ME QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
DE Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – RE HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Repeat

Your idea combining the 2 types of training & programs sounds cool. You can give it a try for a few months (maybe 4-5 like the basic BGB program) and see what kind of results you have by the end of August. If you haven't progressed in the Big 3 like you want, then perhaps start being stricter to the Westside program.

And you never know, you are 17 so you will probably change your mind by August.. maybe even be a BB'er or Olympic lifter.

And perhaps the best thing you can do is have FUN!! INstead of worrying, think of this like you were a mad scientist!! And you are experimenting (programs, exercises, sets, reps, etc.) and with direct access to the best laboratory (your body). Now use all the tools (brains) you can to think up new and exciting ways to get different results!!! Dude, the experimenting, results and creativity are endless!!! Have Fun.

And GL with your goals. If you know what they are...

[Built]

Bear, you're WONDERFUL! Thank you!

I'm going to do this myself at the end of my cut. I want to get some numbers up myself, and this sounds interesting as hell!

[Portboy]

Hey Portboy.. Built asked me to check in here and see if I could help..
From what I'm reading above, it sounds like you are trying to combine the BGB program with a Westside/conjugated periodization type of effort. SOunds interesting...

But what worries me, is your statements like above... you really got to know what your want to do first. So I went to your journal and cut out these snippets - from your Jan. 1 2007 post: (and it might actually be better to cary on this conversation there... but for now..)


And I see recently you've got new PRs in Squats = 100kg/220lbsx5 and DLs = 140kg/308lbsx2... so this is fantastic news.. and great progress.

So with about 4-5 months of using BgB, you made it about half way to your very aggressive goals. And now you want to change things up. Does all this sound Right?

If so.. here would be my advice... based mainly upon your age and goals.

You are 17, almost NOTHING you do in the weightroom is going to be WRONG or hurt you ((unless you use bad form)). Especially if you eat enough. You will gain both mass and strength... you gotta love youth.

However, although you want your BIG 3 to increase significantly, you don't actually say that you want to compete in a PL competition. Maybe somewhere else you do...

So basically you are creating yourself worry for NO reason. Why? You are progressing!! You have gain some weight - so I assume mass. Stop worrying!!!

If I was going to combine the 2 programs, I might do it a bit differently. Keep the BGB formula, but instead of spliting up ME, DE and RE across weeks, I might split them up across workouts.. (Westside/conjugated periodization says not to do the same effort twice in a row).. perhaps something like this:

Week 1:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
ME Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - DE QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
RE Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – ME HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Week 2:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
DE Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - RE QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
ME Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – DE HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Week 3:

DAY 1 - HORIZONTAL PUSH PULL

Horizontal plane back (pull)
RE Horizontal plane chest (push)

DAY 2 - ME QUAD DOMINANT LEGS
DAY 3 - VERTICAL PUSH/PULL

Vertical plane back (pull)
DE Vertical plane shoulders (push)

DAY 4 – RE HIP/HAMSTRING DOMINANT LEGS

Repeat

Your idea combining the 2 types of training & programs sounds cool. You can give it a try for a few months (maybe 4-5 like the basic BGB program) and see what kind of results you have by the end of August. If you haven't progressed in the Big 3 like you want, then perhaps start being stricter to the Westside program.

And you never know, you are 17 so you will probably change your mind by August.. maybe even be a BB'er or Olympic lifter.

And perhaps the best thing you can do is have FUN!! INstead of worrying, think of this like you were a mad scientist!! And you are experimenting (programs, exercises, sets, reps, etc.) and with direct access to the best laboratory (your body). Now use all the tools (brains) you can to think up new and exciting ways to get different results!!! Dude, the experimenting, results and creativity are endless!!! Have Fun.

And GL with your goals. If you know what they are...

Thankyou Bearwolf!

Thanks alot for writing this up! I suppose you're right about me reaching goals, so i suppose that maybe i don't need todo this. Maybe i'm hungry for strength. Although to me the weights i'm doing seem like alot, i know that in the grand spectrum of lifting i've barely made a dent.

When i look at people like Fuzzy and Stump i just wanna kick myself, and it's also why i don't think i really have any significant future for olympic lifting or bodybuilding (lol but thankyou for suggesting it); i feel that if i was gonna be any good i should be lifting alot more than i am now (plus i'm about 5'9" and quite narrow framed so BB'ing is out the window).

In this case, i'll probably stick to BGB, because as you said i am reaching my goals, so i guess i don't need to be changing things up. And yeah, i do have to make myself worry too much!

THANKYOU! THANKYOU! THANKYOU!

And THANKYOU to Built for the help

[Bob]

Portboy.. I put my reply in your journal, so we don't hijack this BGB thread too much.. in short, again you are worrying too much...

[TommyBoy]

Portboy why not just use a standard westside barbell template?

[HeavyBomber]

There are two articles that are must reads for anyone learning about conjugate periodization.

To understand conjugate you need to first understand linear periodization:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/pe...le__part_1.htm

The second article delves into conjugate:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/pe...le__part_2.htm

There are a number of excellent articles on Westside and strength training in general on:

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/Cur...es/default.asp

[Built]

Bearwolf, threadjack away - your replies are interesting to me.
Tommy, HeavyBomber - thank you very much for your help and suggestions.