ATTN: Powerlifters and People Smarter than I

[ElPietro]

*waits for the mad rush of people*

Ok I've tinkered quite a bit with my routine that I think I might as well do so at least once more.

I have read about westside training methods and some I agree with others I don't. My goal isn't just to lift as much as I can, or be as big as I can, so maybe that would be a place to start. What are my goals?

Right now I would like to drop a bit of weight but that will be a function of diet.

I would split my goals in the following three basic focus catagories:

Strength: 50%
Size: 25%
Endurance: 25%

Some of the techniques I see people doing using a westside routine simply aren't doable with my current facilities so I'll try to list those.

Reverse-hypers, glute-ham raise, and don't think i can do box squats, unless I "make" a box.

Other limitations are that I have always trained alone. Nobody really goes to my gym that I know around the same time or lifts as I do. I don't talk to others there so I won't be meeting any new training partners. I don't mind asking for a spot every now and then but I won't be comfortable asking every other exercise or something.

Ideally I can train 2-4 times per week. I generally train to failure in the 6-10 rep range dependant on exercise technique. I wouldn't want to spend more than 1.5 hours at a time in the gym.

Basically I'm looking for ideas. I'm not sure how easy some of the speed techniques are without a partner, if it's possible or not, depending on whether or not it's just doing reps as fast as you can or exploding, so I'd probably need someone to negate the inertial forces on, for example, a bench press.

I also train in martial arts if that has any bearing at all. So I will also be giving some additional attention to some of the smaller muscle groups such has hip flexors, abductors, etc.

My current regime is in my journal, which I'm not unhappy with, but feel like I could be doing more. I have pondered going back to push/pull 4 times per week alternating heavy/light days but haven't devoted enough time to think about it.

[Adam]

Quick question. do you have: powerrack, incline/flat/decline bench, heavy dumbells, cable crossover station, variaty of weight bar(safty squat,cambered etc), chains, think your allowed to take box to gym?

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by getin bigger
Quick question. do you haveowerrack, incline/flat/decline bench, heavy dumbells, cable crossover station, variaty of weight bar(safty squat,cambered etc), chains, think your allowed to take box to gym?

Not sure what a safety squat bar is, but on all else, the answer would be yes.

Feel free to ask any other pertinent questions, going to lunch right now, so I'll be able to answer any other necessary info in a bit. Thanks again.

[Chris Rodgers]

During my 14 weeks or so with Westside, I only really had a spotter on my ME bench days where I feel it is most important. Unless you need someone to critique your form, then speed work is easy and safe to do alone, unless you try something dumb. Always use a power rack when possible. I also didn't have acess to a reverse hyper or a glute-ham raise. Make do with what you have. You can easily throw a box together. I just attached a piece of plywood to a milk crate. Good luck with it fatboy.

[Adam]

How much do you want the routien to be like westside?
Heres a routine that you can do with getting spotters much

1
Speed squat 10 sets of 2 with 60% max on box
sldl/good ams/pull thru's/sumo deads/zerchers for 3-5 sets of 5-12reps
speed deads for 6-8 reps with 55%max with 15sec rest between reps
abs and obliques standing abs/declinesitups/side bends/cable cruch things etc

2
speed bench 9 sets of 3 with 60%of max do 3 sets close,3 med,3 wide grip
close girp bench/jm press/pushdows/dips/board press/pin press/ extensions 3-5 sets of 5-12reps
lat and shoulder work

3
Heavy squat excercise for3 weeks going to a heavy triple
Use regular squats for one week after the 3 weeks of the squat excercise, work up to a heavy triple
sldl/good ams/pull thru's/sumo deads/zerchers for 3-5 sets of 5-12reps
abs obliques

4
heavy bench excercise for 3 weeks going to a heavy triple
reg bench for one week after the 3 weeks going to heavy triple
close girp bench/jm press/pushdows/dips/board press/pin press/ extensions 3-5 sets of 5-12reps
lat and shoulder work

Have it so you do the heavy days 3 days after the speed days.
Like Sunday1 Monday rest Tuesda2 Wednsday rest Thursday3 Friday4 Saturd rest

This is just a sample so if theres anything you want to change just let me know

[PowerManDL]

If you're wanting to train endurance as well, even to a small degree, you might not want to use the straight program--

Let me do a little digging and see if I can come up with a modification.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by PowerManDL
If you're wanting to train endurance as well, even to a small degree, you might not want to use the straight program--

Let me do a little digging and see if I can come up with a modification.

Yes this is sorta what I was getting at. Thanks for all the suggestions, I have some familiarity with westside techniques, but I meant more of an integrated/modified version to account for my differing goals.

Much appreciated.

[PowerManDL]

Ok, I dug up some really cool sciency-stuff out of Supertraining.

Basically, its play on the conjugate sequence system, which is the foundation of Westside-- sorta. Westside technically speaking is what's called the concurrent system. But enough of that.

What you'll want to do is have several blocks of specific training, and gradually phase out and phase in the different methods.

For strength-endurance and speed-strength, key to martial arts, you'd want to set up something along these lines:

Phase 1: Aerobic (general conditioning)
Phase 2: ATP/CP and Glycolysis (concentrated strength loading)
Phase 3: ATP/CP (speed-strength)
Phase 4: Glycolysis (strength-endurance, sport-specific training)

Now, I could make this terribly complicated But for the sake of simplicity, I won't.

Start off with a basic split:

3 days a week, hit the big compounds each time. Pick a squat or a pull, a press, a row, etc, 2-4 exercises each session.

Here's where the above info comes in handy.

For a few weeks, use higher reps and shorter rests all three days. After 3 weeks or so, introduce heavier loading-- 5-8 reps, heavy, the standard "strength" protocol, until you're doing that all three days. After 3 weeks or so of that, start bringing in speed-strength days, both Westside style and static-dynamic until you're doing that entirely. Finally, segue into using high sets, 6-8 for 6-8 reps with short rests.

Sounds complicated, but its not. This booger should build some decent strength, endurance, and power.

[Alex.V]

Groundbreaking. My testicles quiver with anticipation.

[PowerManDL]

Have I detected sarcasm, or was that perhaps genuine (for a change)?

[ElPietro]

Interesting Power. A couple questions for you though. I'm not sure if was you who made this statement or not in your periodization article or not, but basically, "going from phase to phase you will be countering the benefits of the other phases, etc."

I'm looking at what you posted and am sincerely interested in trying this, but the only thing that would give me pause is if it would be possible to do this somehow in 1-2 phases? Can you train two different methods at once? I mean if I went with a heavy/low rep bench coupled with something like a 10-12 rep schema for flies with little rest and then speed the next time out etc, would this be more/less effective? I know this is going back to more of a westside method.

I'm sorta just thinking out loud here and am not sure what is best. The only thing that concerns me about what you outlined is that it's a 16 week cycle and will any of the benefits from week 1 be evident in week 16? I'm not tearing down anything you said, just genuinely interested in your thoughts and those of others. Judging by belial's nuts he likes it...

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by ElPietro
Interesting Power. A couple questions for you though. I'm not sure if was you who made this statement or not in your periodization article or not, but basically, "going from phase to phase you will be countering the benefits of the other phases, etc."

Nah. The idea of the phases enhancing each other is pretty standard from what I've been reading. The contrast is actually what brings about the better adaptation.

I'm looking at what you posted and am sincerely interested in trying this, but the only thing that would give me pause is if it would be possible to do this somehow in 1-2 phases? Can you train two different methods at once?

You bet. I was just giving the better recommendation-- there's no reason that wouldn't work.

I mean if I went with a heavy/low rep bench coupled with something like a 10-12 rep schema for flies with little rest and then speed the next time out etc, would this be more/less effective? I know this is going back to more of a westside method.

Yeah-- again, you'll supposedly lose some of the effectiveness that way, but I doubt you'd notice it. Verkhoshansky was talking about the difference between an national level athlete vs. an Olympic caliber athlete in seeing a difference in gains.

I'm sorta just thinking out loud here and am not sure what is best. The only thing that concerns me about what you outlined is that it's a 16 week cycle and will any of the benefits from week 1 be evident in week 16? I'm not tearing down anything you said, just genuinely interested in your thoughts and those of others. Judging by belial's nuts he likes it...

Yeah, and I'd share that concern as well-- however, you'd retain the endurance by practicing the sport. And you'd never entirely want to phase out the other qualities. For example, you could throw in a maximal strength day during the final weeks.

But again, there's no reason not to make it simpler-- you could do as you stated. However, I wouldn't even bother with isolation movements-- just keep the big compounds in there. As you'll be doing them three times a week, you'll have room for flexibility.

[ElPietro]

So your basically saying Bench, dead and squat 3x/week in one routine? With no other assistance? Post a quick sample so I can see if I'm understanding you. Man phase 4 would hurt like a biatch. Also, on phase one are you talking rep ranges of 12-15? Or is it more a function of rest between sets than anything else? Rest is basically going to determine the amount of weight you use each concurrent set, so either I'd have to drop some weight to keep within the rep range or go with fewer reps...

I'm in no rush...I will achieve my goal of the Real Ultimate Power Ninja-in-training superprogram. Better to get all the facts/ideas first.

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by ElPietro
So your basically saying Bench, dead and squat 3x/week in one routine? With no other assistance?

More or less, but not entirely. I'm thinking more along the lines of Squat/Bench/Row, Deadlift/Overhead Press/Pullup, Front Squat/Dip/Pullover. Not necessarily exactly like that, but you get the idea.

Man phase 4 would hurt like a biatch. Also, on phase one are you talking rep ranges of 12-15? Or is it more a function of rest between sets than anything else? Rest is basically going to determine the amount of weight you use each concurrent set, so either I'd have to drop some weight to keep within the rep range or go with fewer reps...

Yeah, I'd say lighter weight for at least two of the days, and the rest period is going to be important. You'll still want to keep some strength work in there at least one day.

I'm in no rush...I will achieve my goal of the Real Ultimate Power Ninja-in-training superprogram. Better to get all the facts/ideas first.

You'll be flipping out on your axe in no time.

[ElPietro]

There's probably a few threads on speed sets already, but I like to keep this stuff in one thread if I can, maybe it could help someone else on day...

Are speed sets related to tempo? Or power? I guess it can be self-explanatory but I'd rather ask a dumb question than do something dumb as latty said. I'd assume if you guys can do them without a spotter than you are just using a quicker tempo, and not just exploding up as fast as you can on bench for example, otherwise I'm sure most of you who do this without a spotter would be dead by now anyway...

Well just confirm/elaborate if you can...how fast is fast etc...generally what % of your 1Rm and 8RM you guys use...so I can start formulating a plan of action here. Thanks.

[PowerManDL]

Optimal range for developing power is 50-75% of your 1RM.

Ideally, you'll be using a "controlled ballistic" movement-- lower the bar quickly, but under control, then with little to no pause, explode it back up as quickly as possible.

This doesn't mean using curl jockey form. It means mustering all the force you're capable of mustering without losing control of the weight.

I've also been finding lately that the static-dynamic method seems to be a bit more effective than the dynamic method for top-end strength. Use 65-85% of your 1RM for that one, then use a 3-second hold at the bottom. Do this for 2-4 reps.

Personally, I'd combine both methods-- use the dynamic method during the ATP/CP cycles and the static-dynamic method during the aerobic and glycolytic phases.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by PowerManDL
I've also been finding lately that the static-dynamic method seems to be a bit more effective than the dynamic method for top-end strength. Use 65-85% of your 1RM for that one, then use a 3-second hold at the bottom. Do this for 2-4 reps.

Personally, I'd combine both methods-- use the dynamic method during the ATP/CP cycles and the static-dynamic method during the aerobic and glycolytic phases.

Focker how dare you introduce new terms and not explain them. I haven't read up enough so my terminology isn't up to par. Static-dynamic? Other than an oxymoron what is this method?

Also, with your controlled ballistic movements would it be advisable to use straps to maintain contact with the bar at all times? I mean if you really focus on driving through the press I'm sure the bars inertial force could cause your grip to slip at the pinnacle of the concentric portion...or I guess you are going from dead stop at the bottom to quick acceleration to quick deceleration prior to the peak of your movement...

I'm kinda talkin to myself and answering my own questions again aren't I...well answer the first part and correct anything else I logic-ed incorrectly.

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by ElPietro


Focker how dare you introduce new terms and not explain them. I haven't read up enough so my terminology isn't up to par. Static-dynamic? Other than an oxymoron what is this method?

Originally posted by PowerManDL
the static-dynamic method seems to be a bit more effective than the dynamic method for top-end strength. Use 65-85% of your 1RM for that one, then use a 3-second hold at the bottom. Do this for 2-4 reps.

Essentially, its a combination of isometric and dynamic movements. Scientific evidence shows its highly effective, as does my own recent experience with it.

Also, with your controlled ballistic movements would it be advisable to use straps to maintain contact with the bar at all times? I mean if you really focus on driving through the press I'm sure the bars inertial force could cause your grip to slip at the pinnacle of the concentric portion...or I guess you are going from dead stop at the bottom to quick acceleration to quick deceleration prior to the peak of your movement...

You know, you make a good point here. I've never thought of using straps, but its certainly not a bad idea at all. The quick deceleration at the end can actually be a bad thing-- short of releasing the bar and letting a spotter catch it, I haven't heard a way of getting around this.

I'm going to give it a try and see what happens.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by PowerManDL
[BI'm going to give it a try and see what happens. [/B]

Good. But if your elbows pop off you better tell me.

When I have more free time, hopefully tomorrow at work I'll post a sample routine just so we can pick it apart etc. As I said I'm in no rush...


*drops ninja smoke bomb*


*disappears*

[DaChickenShowYo]

(This post is for the sole purpose of proving that DaChickenShowYo is smarter than ElPietro)TM

*Ninja farts and disapears into the following green gas cloud*

[Maki Riddington]

Degenerationtuttut

[PowerManDL]

You should flip out for no reason and uppercut him. That would be totally insane or sweet.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by DaChickenShowYo
(This post is for the sole purpose of proving that DaChickenShowYo is smarter than ElPietro)TM

Hehe if this was true I'd have to kill myself.


*chops lame chicken's head off with katana*

*watches headless chicken run around randomly*

Enuff degeneration.

[Adam]

If the bar is going to slip out of your hands on speed day your probly using to little wieght or need to build your grip. When i do them i let the bar go down as fast as i can control it then explode as hard as i can to the top. If you wanted to make a $20 investment you could get a pair of mini jump stretch bands and that will prevent the bar from going airborn and there really good to use on different excercises.

[ElPietro]

Ok I said I'd post a sample of something that I've been thinking about for a routine so here it is. I didn't get to put enough time into thinking about it so I'm sure I'll be picking it apart alongside you guys. Basically, I have things broken into combo phases of 3 days which integrate into each other forming a long-as$ 15 day split, so basically a 2 week cycle of 5 phases. Below I will list the phase the day and the exercises along with the rest periods between sets for each exercise.

Here is what I'd consider the rest period times:
Short < 45 seconds
Moderate > 45 seconds < 2 minutes
Long > 2 minutes

Yes this is a very complicated number of exercises but it follows a basic pattern and has subtle differences from phase to phase. I'm just brainstorming and what I necessarily end up doing could be ultimately more simple or more complex depending on further research and feedback. Just wanted some opinions on where I'm going with this idea, and whether or not you guys feel like it's worth going through all the trouble or not. I didn't include rest days into the equation...generally speaking rest days will be taken as needed approximately once every 1-2 training days.

Strength/Power Phase

Day 1: Bench Press 5 sets 3-6 reps Long
Speed Deadlift 9 sets of 3 reps Moderate
Hamstring Curls 3 sets of 6-8 Long

Day 2: Squat 5 sets of 3-6 reps Long
Speed Bench 9 sets of 3 reps Moderate
Skull Crushers 3 sets of 6-8 Long

Day 3: Deadlift 5 sets of 3-6 reps Long
Speed Squats 10 sets of 2 Moderate
Quad Extension 3 sets of 6-8 reps Long

Power/Endurance Phase

Day 4: Speed Deadlift 9 sets of 3 reps Moderate
Bench Press 4 sets of 12-15 Short
Triceps Push-Downs 3 sets of 15 Short

Day 5: Speed Bench 9 sets of 3 reps Moderate
Leg Press 4 sets of 12-15 Short
Calf Raise 4 sets of 12-15 Short

Day 6: Speed Squat 10 sets of 2 reps Moderate
Stiff-legged Deadlifts 4 sets of 12-15 Short
DB Rows 4 sets of 12-15 Short

Strength/Hypertrophy Phase

Day 7: Bench Press 4 sets of 3-6 reps Long
Skull Crushers 3 sets 8-10 reps Moderate
Pec Dec 3 sets 8-10 reps Moderate
DB Military Press 3 sets 8-10 Moderate

Day 8: Squat 4 sets of 3-6 reps Long
Quad Extensions 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Hamstring Curls 3 sets of 8-10 Moderate
Calf Raise 3 sets 8-10 Moderate

Day 9: Lat Pull-Downs 3 sets of 5-8 Long
DB or T-Bar Rows 3 sets of 8-10 Moderate
Lower Back Hypers 3 sets of 8-10 Moderate
Shrugs 3 sets 8-10 Moderate

Endurance/Strength Phase

Day 10: Bench Press 4 sets of 3-6 Long
Incline Press 4 sets 12-15 Short
Lat Pull-Downs 4 sets 12-15 Short
Military Press 4 sets 12-15 Short

Day 11: Squat 4 sets of 3-6 Long
Leg Press 4 sets 12-15 Short
Quad Extensions 4 sets 12-15 Short
Calf Raise 4 sets 12-15 Short

Day 12: Deadlifts 4 sets of 3-6 Long
Lat Pull-Downs 4 sets 12-15 Short
DB or T-Bar Rows 4 sets 12-15 Short
Hamstring Curls 4 sets 12-15 Short

Hypertrophy/Strength Phase

Day 13: Bench Press 3 sets 6-8 Moderate
Pec Dec 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Skull Crushers 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Military Press 3 sets 6-8 Moderate

Day 14: Leg Press 4 sets 6-8 Moderate
Quad Extension 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Calf Raise 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Hamstring Curl 3 sets 8-10 Moderate

Day 15: Lat Pull-Downs 3 sets 6-8 Moderate
DB or T-Bar Rows 3 sets 8-10 Moderate
Lower Back Hypers 3 sets 8-10 Moderate

Let me know if you think I'm insane or not. Again this is to focus on overall strength/power, hypertrophy, and endurance with more emphasis on strength. There will also be martial arts during the week and perhaps other cardio during endurance focused phases as well.