Table Sugar vs. Complex Carbs

[Darcy Tucker]

I'm very curious by nature and have always wanted to know the answer to this question.

If the same person is eating 2000 calories (200 calories under maintenance) and is eating 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight and the rest of his calories are coming from table sugar..........will he lose weight at the same rate as if he was eating the same amount of protein but got the rest of his calories from complex carbs.

I realize that by eating table sugar he will probably feel like crap and have crazy hunger pains, but will they lose weight the exact same way?

[Paladyr]

The person eating complex carbs will lose more weight b/c the table sugar causes a spike in insulin which increases fat storage.

[WORLD]

The person eating complex carbs will lose more weight b/c the table sugar causes a spike in insulin which increases fat storage.

:withstupi

[Darcy Tucker]

You guys quite positive?

[Paladyr]

You guys quite positive?

100%. I know it sucks. It doesn't keep me from eating the occasional sweets though, especially after a workout.

When in doubt, you're your own best test subject! hehe. Try it out for yourself, I'd be interested to see what happens. Just eat your protein normally, but get all your carbs from simple sugars and see what happens. Then when you get to a point where you can't lose any more weight at say 2000 calories, switch all your carbs to complex and see if your weight drops some more!

[Built]

Paladyr, how are you so sure? I'm not at ALL sure of this.

[Stray]

The age old discussion of "Is a calorie really just a calorie"...such as would a guy eating 1800 calories in twinkies lose weight or not.

[Unreal]

The person eating complex carbs will lose more weight b/c the table sugar causes a spike in insulin which increases fat storage.

If there was excess calories to store as fat, but since at the end of the day your still 200 under maintence. So if your 200 cals under your going to lose weight, now if the insulin spiking effect causes you to lose more muscle instead of fat is the question.

[Paladyr]

Paladyr, how are you so sure? I'm not at ALL sure of this.

From what I've read and my own experiences...

http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot....or-energy.html

[Paladyr]

If there was excess calories to store as fat, but since at the end of the day your still 200 under maintence. So if your 200 cals under your going to lose weight, now if the insulin spiking effect causes you to lose more muscle instead of fat is the question.

Not necessarily.

Say someone eats 50g of sugar. That causes a spike in insulin, and as a result, the body thinks it's getting plenty of food and stores say 20g of that as fat.

If they had eaten 50g of complex carbs, insulin would not have spiked, the food would have digested slower, and the body would allow more of it to be used for energy instead of storing it as fat.

Like I said, this is what I've read and experienced in my own diet... feel free to try it out on your own eating nothing but sweets and report your findings... I'm all ears... but i've never found a scientific study that concludes "carbs are carbs" when it comes to dieting. Everything I've read indicates what I described above.

In my own experience, I have tried to diet while eating too many sweets and not only do I not lose as much weight as I should, but after I come down off my sugar high, I feel tired and lethargic. My metabolism can't be at a normal level when this happens, so I'm buring less calories just sitting around doing nothing!

[Paladyr]

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/53/60634.htm

"But high-protein diets help people lose weight because they are based partially on science, which is what makes them seductive. The high-protein advocates are right when they say that people in the United States eat too many simple carbohydrates like sugar, white flour, and white rice. These foods are absorbed quickly, causing blood sugar to spike, which in turn provokes an insulin response that accelerates the conversion of calories to fat. There is a clear benefit to reducing the intake of simple carbohydrates, especially to people who are sensitive to them.

So the diagnosis is correct: we are eating too many simple carbohydrates. But the cure is wrong. The solution is not to go from simple carbohydrates to pork rinds and bacon, but from simple carbohydrates to whole foods with complex carbohydrates like whole wheat, brown rice, and fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes in their natural forms. "

[Slim Schaedle]

Say someone eats 50g of sugar. That causes a spike in insulin, and as a result, the body thinks it's getting plenty of food and stores say 20g of that as fat.

This is wrong on so many counts.


Paladyr, make absolutely sure you know the basic biochecmical foundations of energy metabolism before you try to argue this one out.

If they had eaten 50g of complex carbs, insulin would not have spiked, the food would have digested slower, and the body would allow more of it to be used for energy instead of storing it as fat.

This is innacurate as well.

[ddegroff]

100%. I know it sucks. It doesn't keep me from eating the occasional sweets though, especially after a workout.

When in doubt, you're your own best test subject! hehe. Try it out for yourself, I'd be interested to see what happens. Just eat your protein normally, but get all your carbs from simple sugars and see what happens. Then when you get to a point where you can't lose any more weight at say 2000 calories, switch all your carbs to complex and see if your weight drops some more!

Thats a pretty strong statement, being 100%. I looked over the "articles" you posted, not quite the best sources (interview w/ Ornish who has a fad diet). Can you find anything that applies to strength athletes? not the average joe who is eating too many simple sugars and over eating.

Insulin is your storage hormone, it doesn't just store fat.

What if I took all my CHO's around my workout, spikes my insulin, would all that go to fat?

Now if one was to consume all their CHO's in Table sugar (glucose/fructose) vs. Dex, what would the out come be? different or still fat gain?

[Paladyr]

Okay then why are sugar cookies not listed on the "clean" bodybuilding grocery list? How about anything with tons of sugar?

All I'm saying is that all of the evidence I have read as well as my own personal experience points to what I believe. Until someone can show me something that disproves it, I'll continue believing.

I have yet to see a single source or link to anyone saying otherwise.... Please, I'm begging one of you to try it for yourself. If you are on a cut, switch to nothing but sweets but keep your cals where you want them to be and see what happens. I would love to have someone disprove me and what the doctors I have linked to said.

[Paladyr]

Thats a pretty strong statement, being 100%. I looked over the "articles" you posted, not quite the best sources (interview w/ Ornish who has a fad diet). Can you find anything that applies to strength athletes? not the average joe who is eating too many simple sugars and over eating.

Insulin is your storage hormone, it doesn't just store fat.

What if I took all my CHO's around my workout, spikes my insulin, would all that go to fat?

Now if one was to consume all their CHO's in Table sugar (glucose/fructose) vs. Dex, what would the out come be? different or still fat gain?

He doesn't have a "fad" diet FYI. He doesn't even appear to be selling anything.

Honestly I'm done proving myself until someone can post anything that counters the information I've provided....

[ddegroff]

I consider anything thats not well balanced "fad", because yeah it works but its not the best for everyone. Or doesn't continue to work. Ornish's diet is more based for people who have CVD by eating super low fat (which we know isn't always the answer).

I really only have a problem with you saying your 100% convinced that this is true. You haven't really linked any good evidence that proves your point either. What works for you probably wont work for me or others.

Food for thought:
http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/c.../full/13/4/703

Insulin sensitive vs. Insulin resistance over weight women

[Slim Schaedle]

He doesn't have a "fad" diet FYI. He doesn't even appear to be selling anything.

Honestly I'm done proving myself until someone can post anything that counters the information I've provided....

Well, nothing you have said or provided proves anything about the specific question asked.

If you have anything posted on this forum regarding carbohydrates within the past year, some of this should be explained for you already.

The only thing you have addressed is insulin.

My first question: out of your 50 gram example of table sugar(sucrose) how much of that requires insulin once it passes the liver?

[Paladyr]

Someone please try it, because I would love nothing more to be eating soft batch cookies when I am trying to slim down.

I forgot about the insane egos here, so what I should of said was that I'm 100% positive this is the case for me.

I've actually tried it, have any of you??? That in itself is better proof than anything you guys have posted.

Please get on that ASAP and report back, I'd love to hear what happened. As I said, if someone can prove me wrong I will gladly change my mind!

[Slim Schaedle]

Someone please try it, because I would love nothing more to be eating soft batch cookies when I am trying to slim down.

I forgot about the insane egos here, so what I should of said was that I'm 100% positive this is the case for me.

I've actually tried it, have any of you??? That in itself is better proof than anything you guys have posted.

Please get on that ASAP and report back, I'd love to hear what happened. As I said, if someone can prove me wrong I will gladly change my mind!

The question is regarding sucrose, not cookies or any other form of sweets.

Ignoring this completely negates your "proof" and personal experience, as I am guessing whatever diet you were following did not exactly fall within the parameters of what we are actually talking about.

Also, why don't you address my questions rather than getting defensive.

[Paladyr]

It also says it in this article:

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=227

"Spiking your insulin levels all day long will just make you fat and tired. Spike them at the right times and you will increase the uptake of valuable nutrients inside your muscle cells when they are needed most."

Sugar cookies are full of simple sugars, which are high GI foods, that's why I mentioned them. And you are saying that calories are calories so what does it matter what exact food we are talking about? For this argument it doesn't matter at all.

Really, I just don't have the energy to carry this on. Believe what you want, I honestly don't care. Until someone can disprove it, I'm going to go with the dr and my own findings and control my insulin levels.

To the OP: Go ahead and try it and report back your findings!

[Built]

I forgot about the insane egos here, so what I should of said was that I'm 100% positive this is the case for me.

I've actually tried it, have any of you??? That in itself is better proof than anything you guys have posted.

How? Did you weigh your food, track your calories, and find that on the exact same calorie-deficit, you gained on sugar but lost on no-sugar?

And if by "insane egos here" you mean "scientific minds who require peer-reviewed journal support for otherwise unsubstantiated claims" then I hope you mean me, too.

[Built]

"Spiking your insulin levels all day long will just make you fat and tired."

This is only true for uncontrolled caloric intake. If you're limiting your calories, it'll just make you freakishly hungry, and tired.

[Slim Schaedle]

It also says it in this article:

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=227

"Spiking your insulin levels all day long will just make you fat and tired. Spike them at the right times and you will increase the uptake of valuable nutrients inside your muscle cells when they are needed most."

Sugar cookies are full of simple sugars, which are high GI foods, that's why I mentioned them. And you are saying that calories are calories so what does it matter what exact food we are talking about? For this argument it doesn't matter at all.

Really, I just don't have the energy to carry this on. Believe what you want, I honestly don't care. Until someone can disprove it, I'm going to go with the dr and my own findings and control my insulin levels.

To the OP: Go ahead and try it and report back your findings!

lol

There's not really an argument here on my part because you don't even understand basic food chemistry, much less the actual question asked.

I never established a "belief" is this series of posts.

[Paladyr]

"Spiking your insulin levels all day long will just make you fat and tired."

This is only true for uncontrolled caloric intake. If you're limiting your calories, it'll just make you freakishly hungry, and tired.

I counted my calories while still consuming simple sugars regularly, and when weight loss stalled, kept the calories the same but switched to more complex carbs and a lot less simple sugars and started losing again.

I've posted links to doctors agreeing with what I'm saying... I don't know how that can be considered "unsubstantiated." When I said insane egos I meant it.

I don't see any volunteers to try this out? What's up??? If you are a "scientific mind" you would certainly be interested in doing this....

[Built]

I have two science degrees in research areas. I'm also insulin resistant, having spent about 20 years fighting a losing battle with my weight, culminating in a diagnosis of metabolic syndrome and a prescription for Metformin, which didn't work. I got my life back when I dropped my carbs, but it wasn't the carbs that were making me fat - it was the carbs making me hungry, and therefore overeat, that caused the problems.

Show me your data.