Questions: Cinnamon, Insulin Sensitivity, and Post Workout Nutrition

[Questor]

Okay I don't really get it all. I've read a million explanations and either they conflicted with each other, or I just don't have a mind for biology. Or I'm an idiot. All of which are possible, some more than others.

Really, I'd like some brain to just dump it all to me in a way that I completely understood and that laid to rest any misunderstandings I had, so that I could take that brain's teachings as gospel, and I would happily be that brain's sycophant forever.

But. In the interests of proper posting, I'll try to put out some line-item questions or assertions that people can easily confirm or refute.

This is what I think I know but I'm certain I don't know well:

1. Insulin stores (glycogen?) in muscle and fat.

2a. After exercise, your body stores more (glycogen?) in muscle than in fat. The rest of the time, you tend to store more (glycogen?) in fat than in muscle.
2b. OR Insulin stops some thing from destroying your muscles (cortisol?) after a workout.
2c. OR it does both?

3a. People have varying degrees of insulin sensitivity, meaning some people have more glycogen stored per the same amount of insulin, or something like that.
3b. Being fat tends to make you insulin resistant. Being lean tends to make you insulin sensitive.
3c. So... If you're naturally insulin sensitive anyway, and then you get skinny, you're super sensitive to insulin, and if you don't do anything but eat cup cakes you're going to get real fat real quick, right? Or really buff really quick? Right?

4a. So if I could control my insulin sensitivity, that would be cool.
4b. Carbohydrates stimulate insulin release.
4c. BBB I think mentioned in her blog that Cinnamon makes you insulin sensitive. (link)

So if I'm going to pull this all together....

I would want to limit my carb intake when I'm not working out.
I would want to eat some carbs like malto/dextrose during my workout.
I would want to immediately post workout eat some cinnamon and plenty of malto/dextrose (with my protein).

How much of that is crap?

[Con]

Ok, you and I are close in understanding and attitude.

We undertsnad very little and have an attitude that is primed for learning.

I dont know about insulin, and seriously doubt cinnamon is going to take you from one level to the next, but here is what I do know:

1. Eat for your goals.
2. Dont sweat small details
3. Progression over time is your best bet.

[ddegroff]

1. Insulin stores (glycogen?) in muscle and fat.

Insulin is the storing hormone. Think of it as the store clerk adding stuff to the shelves. The shelves are either glycogen stores or fat stores. They are not the same thing.

2a. After exercise, your body stores more (glycogen?) in muscle than in fat. The rest of the time, you tend to store more (glycogen?) in fat than in muscle.
2b. OR Insulin stops some thing from destroying your muscles (cortisol?) after a workout.
2c. OR it does both?

Yes it does store more carbohydrates as glycogen after working out because that's the energy that you used during your workout. If you are in a caloric surplus some of those extra cals go to fat. Insulin response does blunt cortisol.

3a. People have varying degrees of insulin sensitivity, meaning some people have more glycogen stored per the same amount of insulin, or something like that.
3b. Being fat tends to make you insulin resistant. Being lean tends to make you insulin sensitive.
3c. So... If you're naturally insulin sensitive anyway, and then you get skinny, you're super sensitive to insulin, and if you don't do anything but eat cup cakes you're going to get real fat real quick, right? Or really buff really quick? Right?

Yes to most of the points here. Except that you keep confusing insulin and glycogen. Insulin stores glucose in the liver and the muscles as glycogen.

4a. So if I could control my insulin sensitivity, that would be cool.
4b. Carbohydrates stimulate insulin release.
4c. BBB I think mentioned in her blog that Cinnamon makes you insulin sensitive. (link)

So if I'm going to pull this all together....

I would want to limit my carb intake when I'm not working out.
I would want to eat some carbs like malto/dextrose during my workout.
I would want to immediately post workout eat some cinnamon and plenty of malto/dextrose (with my protein).

How much of that is crap?

Not sure about the cinnamon but it's a possiblity. Post workout the body wants to store glycogen anyway so just get some carbs in. What I bolded is perfect. See you do understand .

[Mr. D]

for a good explanation and a good arse-spanking, you should post these questions in Lyle's forum.

www.bodyrecomposition.com

[ddegroff]

for a good explanation and a good arse-spanking, you should post these questions in Lyle's forum.

www.bodyrecomposition.com

LOL, why don't you just throw him under the bus. I would suggest searching/reading before posting.

[Mr. D]

Haha getting sarcastic responses and condescending remarks is a right of passage in that forum.

[Con]

for a good explanation and a good arse-spanking, you should post these questions in Lyle's forum.

www.bodyrecomposition.com

Please, there isnt much hate going on there right now

[BBB]

I would want to limit my carb intake when I'm not working out.
I would want to eat some carbs like malto/dextrose during my workout.
I would want to immediately post workout eat some cinnamon and plenty of malto/dextrose (with my protein).

Yes, yes, and yes.

Do limit your carb intake except before, during, and post workout (in the morning for breakfast is okay too depending on where you are at...bulking or cutting, lean or not, hard gainer or not, etc.).

Yes, have some dextrose during your workout (mixed with some whey is best).
Bulking: .8g dextrose, .4g protein per lb body weight
Cutting: .4g dextrose, .2g protein per lb body weight.

Post workout: Bulking - Same as during workout
Cutting - I think Lyle says skip it (don't quote me on this) - but I have it anyway.
Also, post workout is the one time you do want an insulin spike - so adding cinnamon to your shake post workout shake is good, but really I think you can eat the cinnamon any time. Chocolate shake + cinnamon = yummy IMO. I have mine with my morning oatmeal.

You understand more than you think.

[Con]

Do limit your carb intake except before, during, and post workout (in the morning for breakfast is okay too depending on where you are at...bulking or cutting, lean or not, hard gainer or not, etc.).

Why limit, and not just provide enough to sustain training?

[BBB]

My suggestion is to provide enough to sustain training...by limiting carbs at other times of the day...so I'm not sure what your question is...

[Mr. D]

Yes, yes, and yes.

Do limit your carb intake except before, during, and post workout (in the morning for breakfast is okay too depending on where you are at...bulking or cutting, lean or not, hard gainer or not, etc.).

Yes, have some dextrose during your workout (mixed with some whey is best).
Bulking: .8g dextrose, .4g protein per lb body weight
Cutting: .4g dextrose, .2g protein per lb body weight.
Post workout: Bulking - Same as during workout
Cutting - I think Lyle says skip it (don't quote me on this) - but I have it anyway.
Also, post workout is the one time you do want an insulin spike - so adding cinnamon to your shake post workout shake is good, but really I think you can eat the cinnamon any time. Chocolate shake + cinnamon = yummy IMO. I have mine with my morning oatmeal.

You understand more than you think.

Are you sure thats not supposed to be kg?????Per lb, holy glucose batman.

Also Lyle will tell you if you can fit the carbs in your macros, it doesnt really matter when you eat it and that P+F P+C is all voodoo science. After you get sufficient fat and protein, calorie is king in either goal (bulking/cutting)

[Built]

Depends why you're eating that way. Some of us find it easier to control hunger this way. I'm one of 'em.

My understanding of this is that immediately post workout, glycogen storage is of secondary importance to ensuring an available pool of amino acids and glucose, along with insulin to blunt cortisol and drive this stuff into the newly-wrecked muscles, for repair.

[BBB]

Are you sure thats not supposed to be kg?????Per lb, holy glucose batman.

Hey Robin, I think you have it, it's per kg and not per lb. Thanks...

And I don't think that the P+F or P+C is entirely voodoo science. Think about ice cream as an example. Fat + fast carb (esp. sugar) = adipose tissue (maybe not while on a cut, but definitely when bulking) Fat + Slow Carb = not so bad ... this is just a gut feeling on my part...I'm just using common sense...not science...I also do it because of hunger reasons....

[Unholy]

Same here. Right now on my cut for the past week I have stopped eating carbs except for pre/post workout and the hunger is gone and I have tons of energy in the gym while I burn these last 10 or so lbs of blub off.

[Questor]

My understanding of this is that immediately post workout, glycogen storage is of secondary importance to ensuring an available pool of amino acids and glucose, along with insulin to blunt cortisol and drive this stuff into the newly-wrecked muscles, for repair.

Let me take a stab at translating this into something I can understand.

Built says that:

Immediately post workout:

Storing glycogen in muscles is not as important as:

Having the right amino acids (from protein) and sufficient blood sugar for:

Insulin to...

Stop cortisol from eating your muscles and put the amino acids and blood sugar into muscles.

Thus the importance of dextrose maltodextrin and protein shake immediately PWO (and during workout).

[Alex.V]

Also Lyle will tell you if you can fit the carbs in your macros, it doesnt really matter when you eat it and that P+F P+C is all voodoo science. After you get sufficient fat and protein, calorie is king in either goal (bulking/cutting)

It IS voodoo science.

It wouldn't be if all food skipped all digestion and was instantaneously broken down into individual amino acids, sugar molecules, and lipids. But it's not. Food doesn't digest instantly. Chances are, you still have some of last night's meal digesting.

So most of this junk (meal timing, down to the grams per pound of bodyweight) is pretty much a complete waste of time and energy. But it does make people feel better.

The EXCEPTION is if you are on an EXTREMELY restricted diet and absolutely need to maintain energy levels when in essentially a starved state. Then this all may be worth it.

There's no need to restrict carbs at other times of the day. You're constantly resynthesizing glycogen, and what isn't used for energy or glycogen stores CAN be stored as fat. But, hey, fat can also be used for energy, and IS used regularly throughout the day. Meal timing cannot, under normal circumstances, trump thermodynamics or alter the body's basic energy requirements.

You want to avoid catabolism? Eat a few balanced meals, and have a damn snickers bar when you're done with your workout. Or a gatorade. Or a few jolly ranchers. Or a glass of milk. If you notice a marked difference in results between this and a 45.2452g CHO/23.3255g protein drink post workout, I will stand corrected.

But I doubt that's going to happen.

[BBB]

I'm not convinced. To each his own.

[Unholy]

Alex says to eat snickers, I will be eating snickers.

Or my protein shake with icecream in it =P

[Alex.V]

I'm not convinced. To each his own.

Go for it. Simplicity based on biology/biochemistry, as well as empirical evidence, has few fans. It doesn't sell magazines, and it tends to stifle debate. I don't waste my time trying to convince people anymore.

Except in "upper chest" threads.

[BBB]

That BTW - is funny as hell....

It's not that I think that you're wrong either...but I'm a girl, and if there is even a chance that it will help me get lean to not eat too much fat and sugar together, I'm all for it.

[Alex.V]

Hey, it's not that I think YOU'RE wrong. I'm just speaking as somebody who wore himself out over all the complication. I do have an addictive personality, and have had three addictions that have almost killed me. Anorexia's one of them.

And so my first approach to all this, that lasted years, was breaking down each and every macro, trying to find the "perfect" structure for my diet and training.

It's after I went back to school for biochemistry and starting tearing into these studies I thought I understood that I realized the flaws in my thinking; all the second-guessing I was doing in search of perfection was a little misguided. Problem is, my base assumptions (I know my caloric needs, meal timing is important, macronutrients should be absolute) were false. Or at least, not as complete as I thought they were.

But I agree... these timing issues can make the difference for people with very specific goals. But they really are the last 2% of the picture.

In my completely and utterly humble opinion.

[BBB]

I completely agree with you that trying to micro-manage every little thing that you put in your mouth is a hopeless endeavor and that people waste WAY too much time on it.

If people think that there is some magic meal timing that is going to make them lean or grow they are sorely mistaken....consistency + time is the only thing that has ever worked for me.

[Questor]

You want to avoid catabolism? Eat a few balanced meals, and have a damn snickers bar when you're done with your workout. Or a gatorade. Or a few jolly ranchers. Or a glass of milk. If you notice a marked difference in results between this and a 45.2452g CHO/23.3255g protein drink post workout, I will stand corrected.

+1 follower of Belial.

[Alex.V]

.consistency + time is the only thing that has ever worked for me.

right on. I think we can definitely agree on this part.

[emjlr3]

just to keep the record straight

insulin is secreted by the pancreas's B cells in repsonse to increased concentration of glucose (thus the high intake of simple sugars, like powdered gatorade, will up your insulin secretion faster then something like the complex carbs in rice, that first need to be broken down into glucose)

insulin takes this glucose, and stores it as glycogen in your liver, and allows the glucose to be taken up into other tissues

it also aids in the uptake of amino acids to make protein (the anabolic effect)

lastly, it blunts the cortisol, which works in the opposite way of insulin, by breaking down the stored glycogen into glucose, and fatty acids and proteins into simpler molecules which are eventually converted to glucose (the catabolic effect)

so

1. no, glycogen in the liver, fatty acids, glucose and proteins in other tissue
2. in response to stress(lifting) cortisol does the bad stuff listed before, insulin stops this for us
3.not too sure, but what you said sounds reasonable
4.a.yes
b.yes
c.not sure

so, the bottom line, and what I liek to stick to is

carbs during the day that fit into my calorie limit while keeping my protein and fats at the gs that I want
good complex stuff 1 hr before workout, and some slower absorbing protein to help fule my lift
glucose +whey immediatly post workout to make me anabolicish

remember to take all this with a grain of salt, I have been known to make mistakes, and this stuff is not 100% fresh from animal physiology