Need help with workout for size (42 year old)

While I'm not one for internet battles, I do believe that bad advice should be called into question.

"but one of the rules of this board is to only give advice when you know what you are talking about"..............really? I didn't see that wording in the rules.

Also, it seems that you Zen are breaking some rules as well.

Explain how calling out DieselWarrior as "ill informed" helps the op with his question.

Originally Posted by Off Road

While I'm not one for internet battles, I do believe that bad advice should be called into question.

Heh, I try not to be either. Maybe I need to go eat and come back in a better mood.

Originally Posted by BCorn

"but one of the rules of this board is to only give advice when you know what you are talking about"..............really? I didn't see that wording in the rules.

Also, it seems that you Zen are breaking some rules as well.

Explain how calling out DieselWarrior as "ill informed" helps the op with his question.

I havent read the rules in a while but I did when I joined and remember that one distinctly I think... maybe its not, and if not the apologies.

But, in my defense, how would you feel if you knew nothing and came to a forum and asked for help and then you got ill informed advice directing you incorrectly?

Should we not be looking out for this in the interest of those who dont know better?


It doesnt help the OP directly, but indirectly yes it does. It was a direct response to DieselWarriors advice... which didnt help the OP either and was misleading in a much more robust way than mine.

I apologize, DieselWarrior, if I offended you.

Originally Posted by BCorn

"but one of the rules of this board is to only give advice when you know what you are talking about"..............really? I didn't see that wording in the rules.

Also, it seems that you Zen are breaking some rules as well.

Explain how calling out DieselWarrior as "ill informed" helps the op with his question.

We at WBB encourage ALL discussion on training, diet, life etc.

Originally Posted by RichMcGuire

This actually is a huge part of your problem. These arent really "gettin' big" foods. These foods have high protein content but very little total kcals in relation to other things such as whole milk, ground beef, or peanut butter. Start subbing out some of these foods for higher kcal foods.

This is a GREAT point. Alot of people trying to gain mass look at protein. Protein is A variable, not THE variable. Carbohydrates are what builds muscle, and yes fat too. Bang for buck food has lots of fat, an normally quite a few carbs.

Originally Posted by DieselWarrior

someone will insist on 5 whey shakes a day and twice creatine, but I still say thats a waste of money and is hard on the human's filtering system (kidneys)

False statement. Someone who knows what they are talking about won't suggest increasing protein over real food, it is a SUPPLEMENT. As far as being hard on the kidneys, really? Are you sure? Its kind of old hat now, I do believe its been disproven.

As far as cost goes, I do believe my Protein shakes workout to less than 70c per serve of 60g of protein. Including milk.

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

I havent read the rules in a while but I did when I joined and remember that one distinctly I think.


It doesnt help the OP. It was a direct response to his advice... which didnt help the OP either and was misleading.

It is a rule. Any time misinformation is NOT called out someone can walk away with incorrect information, this is not bb.com or whatever - WBB is a place for intelligent discussion, in the pursuit of bettering our own knowledge and helping those that need it.

obviously DiselWarrior felt is was sound advice or he would'nt have posted it. Unless he just has too much time on his hands, I doubt that he would intentionally give bad advice. I am sure that you have given advice before that you thought was correct at the time only later as you learned more to find out that you were "ill informed".

"how would you feel if you knew nothing and came to a forum and asked for help and then you got ill informed advice directing you incorrectly? "....that is a risk that you should be aware of when asking for advice on a public forum. Surely the op knows that most of the members here are just "average joes" that do not so this for a living and can only share knowledge that they have obtained from their own personal experiences in this sport....which is exactly what DieselWarrior was doing.

Originally Posted by BCorn

obviously DiselWarrior felt is was sound advice or he would'nt have posted it. Unless he just has too much time on his hands, I doubt that he would intentionally give bad advice. I am sure that you have given advice before that you thought was correct at the time only later as you learned more to find out that you were "ill informed".

Just because he intends for it to be good does not mean that is the result. Knowledge= True justified belief. He was lacking two of those and I believe needs to be held to some degree of accountability, namely being informed of what he is lacking to prevent further incidents. Furthermore, it has been said to him before but he insists on sticking to his guns despite admitting himself that he is newb in various other threads.

Originally Posted by BCorn

"how would you feel if you knew nothing and came to a forum and asked for help and then you got ill informed advice directing you incorrectly? "....that is a risk that you should be aware of when asking for advice on a public forum. Surely the op knows that most of the members here are just "average joes" that do not so this for a living and can only share knowledge that they have obtained from their own personal experiences in this sport....which is exactly what DieselWarrior was doing.

One cannot derive an "ought" from an "is". This is what separates us from them... as Risk said... BB.com VS wbb.com

Additionally, how would you like to take advice from someone who is a self proclaimed newbie? How much personal experience do you require for the advice to seem sound?

My point being, I really do not think that it is necessary to take in 1 to 1.5g of protein per pound of weight, lean or otherwise. When the digestive system starts generating flatulence as a side effect, there MUST be something there that supports my assumption that a good diet is ALL that is needed.

Creatine IMHO is an over sell. There are responders and null responders. And from what Ive read, the positive effects are only present as long as the supp is taken.

N.Oxide boosters such as SP250 and the like are extreamly high jacked up numbers of caffine and l-arginine. All this gives a vaso dilator effect thus "causing" a pump. If you want a real pump, a damn hard workout with heavy weight and higher sets will give you a natural pump without the ill side effects.

Weight loss products try to stimulate the metabolism into hyper drive to burn off excess fat (the simple translation). Whereas you would be better off just doing more cardio.

1) The supplement industry is a multibillion dollar a year business. Every rag and mag has tons of ads.

2) The kidney's job is to filter the body of everything you take into it. From medication your doctor prescribes to waste products of chemical processes. This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Who knowing that, would intentionally take in supplements over a long duration without knowing what harm may come? How do you know how this will effect you at age 60? Just because the last 5 years you have taken "XXX" supplement you have had no problems doesn't meant damage isnt being done to the human body.

3) A lot of times Im sure people fall into the "I should take some kind of supplement" trap because everyone else is taking them. That doesnt justify anything.

4) The supplement industry and there products are not even regulated by the FDA. Who is to say what is in the box or bucket? Are they liable for your cancer or whatever else that occurs at age 75?

5) Who told you you need to take a supplement? The advertisers? Thats the same company thats making money selling them to you!

6) I know this website is largely sponsored by a supp retailer so I must choose my words wisely or be at risk of being censored/banned however I know my opinion is not enough to make a change in the world's buying habits and cause any company to loose revenue or be forced to shut down.

Do what you want, its not my body your going to do it to. I am simply saying, you do NOT need to take ANYTHING to stay healthy, get a good pump and build muscle. PERIOD. (Other than a good general multivitamin of course)

There are going to be plenty of people that will agree with me, and many that will not. That is not the point, the point is.... I am conveying my opinion to the OP and if you do not agree does not make you right and me wrong, just a difference of opinion.

I admit I have only been lifting for a few months, but what I am saying falls along the "common sense rule".

If you want real results, just find a juice connect and be done with all the business of lying to yourself that your doing "something good" for yourself.

ASK YOUR DOCTOR IF YOU ARE UNSURE!

Best of luck,
Andrew

"Additionally, how would you like to take advice from someone who is a self proclaimed newbie?

ZM - on a public forum one can expect for a large percentage of the responses to a question to come from a "newbie". In comparison to a person that does this "professionaly"...we are all newbies. A large percentage of what we know has come from years of experimentation with our own bodies. Based on that none of us can give another person accurate advice.....all we can do is share our thoughts and opinions and what our own body has responded best to.

"How much personal experience do you require for the advice to seem sound?""

I can't require anything of anyone when asking for advice on a forum. All I can do is read the responses and use my own intelligence to sort out the good advice from the bad. How can you determine ones experience on a forum anyway? Do we assume just because someone has 5,000 post on this forum that their advice will always be sound. I can see plenty of proof in this thread alone that disproves that.

Diesel,

I don't think anybody will disagree with you on the statement that supplements are not required. That has been stated over and over again, even by the supplement company reps on this forum. But at the same time I don't think you can discount the effectiveness of some of the supplements when used in conjunction with a good diet and workouts. People just need to realize that supplements like powdered protien are not magic and will only serve to fill the holes or ensure a benefitial ammount in a person's diet, just like taking a vitamin.

I think people disagreed with your claim that supplements are harmful and useless. There has been too much research and documentation on the effectiveness and safety of supplements like protien and creatine to call them unsafe and ineffective.

It's hard for a new lifter to wade through all the information given and decide what is correct or not. So, while I think everybody is entitled to express their opinion, I think it's important to disagree [in an adult manner] when somebody posts something that may give a new lifter misinformation.

Originally Posted by Off Road

I think people disagreed with your claim that supplements are harmful and useless.

Mostly, Im not convinced myself they are not harmful, and question the usefulness of them. That was what I was saying. I dont trust reports or research. Thats just me. Nothing more, nothing less.

All I ask is for others to observe my opinion from my standpoint, see if they agree or disagree and move on. I cannon change another person's mind, but I can express my thoughts.

More than anything, stimulating creative and constructive thought is what I am more interested in! Weather we agree or not, were at least FREE THINKING instead of focused thinking or pre-programmed thinking.

In the end, I agree we can disagree like adults and respect everyone's view. There is no law that demands we all think alike (...yet).

This is a high quality forum and I like to keep it that way. People dont come here for a BB.com experience. I did not determine his experience, he, in multiple other threads, admitted having little experience, not to mention it is obvious. People hide behind the word "opinion" too much. There are opinions and there are flat out falsities hiding behind the word opinion. It doesnt matter if one is convinced or not to the safety of creatine and protein powder... if you are wrong you are wrong. While there may not be overt examples in this thread there are in others. I know everyone's body responds differently to different stimuli but there are proven methods that work for the majority and are most efficient. That is the point of origin and trouble shooting should occur once the tried and true do not work.

As far as I am concerned, I know I dont know everything but Ive been around... In my defense I was planning on going to grad school for kines but changed my mind last minute. In preparation for that Ive had internships with Mark Rippetoe and Vic Viloria. Ive worked with Rick Flemming and his OLY lifters and with trainers/coaches at Crossfit:Plano. Ive also passed the USAWL and CSCS exam.

All I am doing is looking out for the guy that doesnt know which advice to take.

For what it's worth and being a newbie to lifting and this site, firstly I must say that the amount of information available is staggering and bearing in mind that the subject matter of some of the advice given if not correct could be catastrophic in extreme circumstances should someone act on it.

BUT as a previous poster said when people come here for help and information , myself included we have the choice of what we do with that information and ultimately must apply a degree of common sense when deciding what to do with said information.

I personally can see both sides of the debate here, (no sitting on fence here then ?) and believe that both parties are genuine in their intentions and mean well. Thats my two peneth worth anyway

To the OP -
Most of us don't get enough protein, even with a good diet, in our systems per day; which is one of the reasons why we add a protein shake or 2 a day. As an added bonus, a protein shake made with milk is quick and easy calories.

As far as creatine, if it doesn't bother your digestion, it doesn't hurt to take it. I'd take it if I could.

The kidney issues mentioned are true for some. Generally, as a rule, if you drink enough water each day (a good rule of thumb is your bwX.6 in oz. of water), there should be minimal or no kidney problems with extra protein and/or creatine. I know of several that had kidney problems (with extra protein and/or creatine) because of 2 reasons:
1) an existing kidney problem they didn't know about, and/or;
2) they weren't drinking enough water.

What all of this boils down to is that you need to eat big to get big. You need to lift heavy weights to get big. There is no need at 42 years old (I'm 47) to take any supplement, if you don't want to. My suggestion is a good multi-vitamin, a good diet, lift hard and heavy and get enough rest and you can grow.

If you're considering adding some protein shakes and creatine into your diet, I'd suggest starting with a couple of protein shakes a day. Stick with that for 2-3 weeks to see how your digestion goes. If all is well, then add in the creatine and see how that goes.

Originally Posted by Nicky

lol , Better than watching TV

Diet is more important than training.

Dietary supplements are just that, supplements. Things like protein and creatine have been around for 10+ years and are backed by countless studies and millions of testimonials to validate their effectiveness. That doesnt mean that you have to use them, but they can be a good tool if you are not getting enough protein in your diet or need a boost in the gym.

The 5/3/1 is a program is focused on strength (powerlifting).

Powerlifters train movements, bodybuilders train muscle groups. The word bodybuilder does not mean that you have to paint yourself with fake tan and stand on a stage, it just means that you want to build mass. Powerlifters demonstrate their abilities by lifting heavy weights. Nothing is wrong with either group or superior about either training style, they are simply differences in personal preference.

If you want to gain weight then 3,500 calories = 1 pound. If you want to look good and not just get fat then I would recommend a high protein diet loaded with whole foods. Eat 5-6 times per day to ensure you are meeting your caloric needs and to allow your body to process all of the food. Do not mix high fat and high carbohydrate content in the same meal. Consume slow digesting protein before bed.

One thing that may not have been mentioned here is HRT. At 42 you may be a good candidate for HRT but that is for your Doctor to determine.

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

No so much. Creatine is good. Powdered protein is good. Take both. They are not necessary by any means but are both fine and can provide positive results. You should really stop giving advice until you are more experienced and have done more research.

ZenMonkey is right... like yah you dont need them to get big but they do help out. Like i am 15 and i know i dont need them but i pretty much tested to see if they worked. I lifted for a year with them and i lifted for a year without.... And the year i did i gained more then i did without... They are not 100% good for your body but if you know how to regulate the intake of them you will be fine. Dont be like some people and drink a protein shake every 3 hours.... pretty much pointless. i take 1 after i lift... i take creatine before i lift along with 2 glutamine tablets and then i take 6 amino acid tablets after the workout.

Originally Posted by Aaron72

Dont be like some people and drink a protein shake every 3 hours.... pretty much pointless.

Please explain: why this would be pointless?

Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis

One thing that may not have been mentioned here is HRT. At 42 you may be a good candidate for HRT but that is for your Doctor to determine.

Good point Tom. Even if you aren't ready for HRT yet, it is a good time to get a baseline established. Something I've yet to do. How does the old adage go, "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Originally Posted by DieselWarrior

M

Creatine IMHO is an over sell. There are responders and null responders. And from what Ive read, the positive effects are only present as long as the supp is taken.

Just for future reference and anybody else's.

Creatine is a naturally occurring substance in the human body.

Originally Posted by DMedley

Please explain: why this would be pointless?

it would be pointless because your not getting the other foods you need... you need to mix up your diet. I have friends that all they think they need is protein shakes but yet i have passed them up in strength and i look better then they do because i mix up my meal with differnt foods.

Originally Posted by BCorn

"Additionally, how would you like to take advice from someone who is a self proclaimed newbie?

ZM - on a public forum one can expect for a large percentage of the responses to a question to come from a "newbie". In comparison to a person that does this "professionaly"...we are all newbies. .

There are some "professional" people on this forum. As for myself I've not only trained for over 20 years, I've also trained (more or less) many other people. While I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about this sport there is to know...I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't fall under the definition of a "newbie" (with the possible exception of "group gurus") to anyone again when it comes to this sport. Not that I am saying that I'm more informed than anyone else...I'm not but I'd stack my advice (when it comes to a natural lifter) against that of any of the IBBF pros...bar none. In fact I've gone post to post with more than one "professional" on these forums and come out ahead.

The advice that I give is backed up not only by personal experience but also by that of observing a good number of others who've trained under my tutelage for any significant period of time. 'Strangely enough' the results (although varying in degree) were quite similar for everyone. Increased muscle mass, noticeable gains in strength, leanness....Once you know what you are doing, it's not rocket science.

Originally Posted by DieselWarrior

Mostly, Im not convinced myself they are not harmful, and question the usefulness of them. That was what I was saying. I dont trust reports or research. Thats just me. Nothing more, nothing less.

.

Yes, but things like protein and creatine are natural. Protein you can find in meat, dairy products, nuts...

Creatine occurs naturally in the human body (actually any vertebrate)...we produce about 1-2 grams a day.


Furthermore I have a question. If you don't trust reports or research...on what exactly are you basing your opinions on?

Originally Posted by Songsangnim

Just for future reference and anybody else's.

Creatine is a naturally occurring substance in the human body.

I agree. However, I feel if the body NEEDED that much more creatine NATURALLY, it would have generated it on it's own. Im only pointing out my opinion which admittedly may be invalid.