SS with no squats and deadlifts

a friend of mine started training with me. I would like him to do SS but he can't do squats and deadlifts because he got a serious injury to his knees. So this is a problem for me, because i don't know how to adjust the program. Do you have suggestions? Perhaps he should try another program, but i know only SS for the beginner level.

Hope you can help me in finding some other program or adjusting SS so that he can achieve comparable results. I think he should be able to perform the leg press. We tried with the squat but his knees hurt very much even at body weight. I know all the stuff about squats are good for your knees, they get stronger, and so on, but he really can't do them, it's painfull. (so i suppose he also can't deadlift)

thanks

Im still a rookie, but Ill try to suggest something helpful.

At age 42, theres a few movements that my joints are not happy with, so I totally understand limitations!

I have had to make modifications to movements in order to work the specific muscle intended. Based on that, my suggestions are-

1) The squat does a great job with the quads and lower back, since the knee cannot handle a full squat, see if a 1/2 ROM squat will work. A 1/2 squat is better than no squat. Also see if leg extensions are well tolerated, the stress on the knee is different, but at least the quad will be exercised.

2) For the lower back, see if he can do "Good Mornings".

Video

There are other exercises that can be substituted.
Bill Pearl's book "Getting Stronger" has a massive drawing library of exercises!
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Strong...7043514&sr=8-1

GL my friend,
Andrew

so you think partials are better than nothing and less stressful on the knees. We'll try, and see if that is affordable for my friend. He should be able also to do glute ham raises and pull throughs.
I'm worried because the absence of squats and deadlifts leaves a huge hole in strength/muscle development. Probably he will need some extra exercise for his back and his legs.
Don't know how to program with such a big limitation.

First, I'd have him give squatting a good try and really focus on the form. If he can Leg Press, he can probably find a way to squat. Maybe try box squats and have him sit way back with his hips. Really focus on not moving the knees forward. Don't give up on such a great exercise until you've run out of options.

If he truely cannot squat, and he's tried and failed, then I'd focus on the deadlift. The squat is King because it activates so many muscles while using very heavy loads, that's why it's so effective as a strength/muscle building exercise. Well guess what? The deadlift activates those same muscles and often times with even greater weight being used. Find out what style of deadlift he CAN use without killing his knees. You can try traditional, sumo, romanian, stiff-leg, and others. Combine the deadlift with a good quad exercise that won't kill his knees. You'll have to experiment to find something but I'd look at step-ups, lunges, and belt squats might even work if you experiment with the angle.

Of course you would have to find a good routine that will fit around the deadlift. I wouldn't use Starting Strength and have him deadlifting three times a week. That would be too brutal.

If you want more people to help you, you can PM a moderator and have them move this thread to one of the main forums. There are some really experienced guys here that can probably help you figure this out. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Off Road

First, I'd have him give squatting a good try and really focus on the form. If he can Leg Press, he can probably find a way to squat. Maybe try box squats and have him sit way back with his hips. Really focus on not moving the knees forward. Don't give up on such a great exercise until you've run out of options.

If he truely cannot squat, and he's tried and failed, then I'd focus on the deadlift. The squat is King because it activates so many muscles while using very heavy loads, that's why it's so effective as a strength/muscle building exercise. Well guess what? The deadlift activates those same muscles and often times with even greater weight being used. Find out what style of deadlift he CAN use without killing his knees. You can try traditional, sumo, romanian, stiff-leg, and others. Combine the deadlift with a good quad exercise that won't kill his knees. You'll have to experiment to find something but I'd look at step-ups, lunges, and belt squats might even work if you experiment with the angle.

Of course you would have to find a good routine that will fit around the deadlift. I wouldn't use Starting Strength and have him deadlifting three times a week. That would be too brutal.

If you want more people to help you, you can PM a moderator and have them move this thread to one of the main forums. There are some really experienced guys here that can probably help you figure this out. Good luck.

many thanks!

I agree with OffRoad's suggestions. Make sure he (you, as well) learn the squat form properly. DON'T do partials, those are harder on the knees than full squats are.

Originally Posted by rbtrout

I agree with OffRoad's suggestions. Make sure he (you, as well) learn the squat form properly. DON'T do partials, those are harder on the knees than full squats are.

Partials will definitely make bad knees worse.

If you change anything, please don't tell people you are doing Starting Strength, 'cause you're not.

Originally Posted by shutUpAndSquat

a friend of mine started training with me. I would like him to do SS but he can't do squats and deadlifts because he got a serious injury to his knees. So this is a problem for me, because i don't know how to adjust the program. Do you have suggestions? Perhaps he should try another program, but i know only SS for the beginner level.

Hope you can help me in finding some other program or adjusting SS so that he can achieve comparable results. I think he should be able to perform the leg press. We tried with the squat but his knees hurt very much even at body weight. I know all the stuff about squats are good for your knees, they get stronger, and so on, but he really can't do them, it's painfull. (so i suppose he also can't deadlift)

thanks

I too have some (mild) knee conditions...but it sounds like your friend is worse off than I am. So keeping that in mind here are a few suggestions:

1. Find out for sure if he can't handle deadlifts...there are variations that place less stress on the knees. If he can not, then he can replace it with rows and chins.


2. About the leg press. If he can do the leg press, then he can squat. The knee travels through much the same ROM. What are the limitations of his injury? Can he bend the knee and if so, to where? Does any flexion cause him pain or only in a certain range of motion?

Originally Posted by Songsangnim

I too have some (mild) knee conditions...but it sounds like your friend is worse off than I am. So keeping that in mind here are a few suggestions:

1. Find out for sure if he can't handle deadlifts...there are variations that place less stress on the knees. If he can not, then he can replace it with rows and chins.


2. About the leg press. If he can do the leg press, then he can squat. The knee travels through much the same ROM. What are the limitations of his injury? Can he bend the knee and if so, to where? Does any flexion cause him pain or only in a certain range of motion?

1. Wouldnt switching deadlifts with rows and chins be beside the point? The point in this case is that he cant do leg exercises, he can do back exercises. I do agree that variations of the deadlift could work, especially the Romanian deadlift.

2. Thats what i was thinking as well.

he told me he could do leg presses but actually when i saw him doing them are more a quarter-leg presses.

When i said he can't squat it means that he really can't squat. I will ask him what kind of injury he soffers, but when we tried to squat he said to me his knees hurt very much, and if he tries (even back against a wall, body weight) to go below a quarter squat will loose stability and feel really unsafe. It's not a matter of flexibility, believe me. Tonight we are going to give a try to box squats. He can do barbell rows so probably he can learn how to deadlift. But i don't want my friend to die at the gym, if you know what i mean.

@BG5150, i don't understand the utility of your comment. It looks like you are some sort of purist.

[QUOTE = LuNalicious; 2236148] 1. Wouldnt switching deadlifts with rows and chins be beside the point? . [/quote]


Yes, but the OP said that his friend probably couldn't do deadlifts. I said find out if that is the case. If so, then he can do rows and chins.

No matter how good an exercise is, if it causes you pain, don't do it.

Originally Posted by shutUpAndSquat

Tonight we are going to give a try to box squats. He can do barbell rows so probably he can learn how to deadlift. But i don't want my friend to die at the gym, if you know what i mean.

Start with a high box and an empty bar. Good luck and let us know the results.

Originally Posted by Songsangnim

Yes, but the OP said that his friend probably couldn't do deadlifts. I said find out if that is the case. If so, then he can do rows and chins.

No matter how good an exercise is, if it causes you pain, don't do it.

Ah ok, i thought he was looking for an exercise that worked his legs, therefore making rows and chins besides the point.

I definitely agree with you there.

today we tried box squats (with a above parallel box). He is able to do box squats with almost no pain. So i think now we will work on them.
I decided to leave out deadlifts for the moment. A new exercise (box squats) is already enough to digest. I think to leave out deadlifts utill he feels more confident
with box squats. When i said to him "if you can leg press you can squat, it's safer for your knees" (thanks for the tip) he changed complitely mindset, and he agreed to give a try to box squats.
So, for what concerns legs, i think we can be happy now. I think he should be ready to deadlift in a few weeks.
We started very light, today we used just a broomstick.

Glad to hear it's working out. Don't forget to lower the box over time as he adjusts to it.

good to see he is really trying to give it a go....

id suggest maybe heavy highrep lunges instead of squats they still pack on size

just a suggestion maybe good mornings

good luck

Originally Posted by Bmxstrong

id suggest maybe heavy highrep lunges instead of squats they still pack on size

Lunges instead of squats...umm...no

knowing the above, at least one of the following are true 1) he's a pussy, 2) he confuses muscle soreness with pain, 3) squat form sucks, 4) poor flexibility

I'm new and in no way educated enough to give advice, but I see there is an link here that you may want to read.

http://www.wannabebig.com/training/b...ith-bad-knees/

BTW, when I saw that someone named Shutupandsquat wanted advice on doing the SS with no squats, I just had to check it out

Originally Posted by shutUpAndSquat

so you think partials are better than nothing and less stressful on the knees. We'll try, and see if that is affordable for my friend. He should be able also to do glute ham raises and pull throughs.
I'm worried because the absence of squats and deadlifts leaves a huge hole in strength/muscle development. Probably he will need some extra exercise for his back and his legs.
Don't know how to program with such a big limitation.

Taking this at face value and not trying to say he needs to work through it or any of that. Here is a suggestion. Taking a heavy barbell as for a squat and walking and or doing step ups. This will still work the legs, back and core. After a period of time he could then see if his knees improve.

A couple things not yet mentioned:
1. Use pre-exhaustion - Do your isolation lifts first so that you can use a lower weight when you squat or leg press. You'll get the same relative stress on the muscles, but the knee will be under less total weight. I usually do something like 3-4 sets of heavy SLDL, 3 sets of light extensions (30-50 rep sets), and then leg press or bulgarian split squats.

2. Train infrequently. This will allow any swelling to go down in between sessions. If your knee is still sore by the next training session, either skip it or stick to isolation lifts.

It's easy to train the posterior chain without bending the knee; the hard part is training the quads. Just keep everything high-rep when training quads and progress slowly.

Originally Posted by Doobs

A couple things not yet mentioned:
1. Use pre-exhaustion -
2. Train infrequently.

Mike Mentzer would be proud

Honestly its wonderful to ask for advice from your friends on stuff like this but without an awareness of what is happening with his knees it is almost impossible for us to suggest something safely! Though I will say if he can leg press a squat is safe, but I would probably try to push the ROM a little more each time. The whole point of squatting is to try to break that 90 degree angle to ensure that there is optimum muscle activation. Just tell him to make sure he focus' on form, that his knees dont go past his toes and that he keeps them in line with his ankles. If his knees cave in while he is squatting he will be putting lots of strain on his patella, he can cause ita to go off its track which can often cause pain in the knee joint.

I would ask him exactly what is wrong with his knees, just general pain is kind of vague.

Oh, and as a last minute addition - knee extensions have been proven to be the absolute worst thing for knee injuries! The angle it creates in the knee and the pressure causes severe strain on the ligaments in the knee joint! The only time they could / should ever be done is if you need separation in the Quadriceps muscles for bodybuilding comps, and even then I still hesitate....

There is nothing inherently wrong with pushing your knees past your toes in a deep knee bend/squat. That is a common misconception.