This is a question for anyone on this board who has been following a dedicated training routine + diet for at least 2 years. You n00bs don't count because you're still in the "n00b gains" phase and won't be able to relate to what I'm saying
Anyway, have you noticed that your LBM gains tend to drop off dramatically after the first 2 years or so? I'm not talking about strength - I've had no issues making reasonably steady gains in strength since then. I am only referring to gaining LBM. Note - just because the scale weight is going up does not mean you are gaining LBM I think people on here, myself included, tend to vastly underestimate their own bf%.
Let's just say that my last 2 bulks, the second of which I am in the middle of, have not yielded much in the way of LBM. My strength went up a fair bit, and my weight certainly went up, but my measurements didn't reflect any significant increase in LBM, at least not nearly as significant as what I was experiencing during the first 2 years. My waist measurement went up, so I know some of the weight gained was definitely fat.
Anyone who has followed my journal on here knows that I eat enough of the right foods, my routine is solid, and there's nothing that immediately jumps out saying "this is your problem". During the above mentioned first bulk, I went overboard and put on way too much fat, so I certainly know how to eat enough. I've tracked my cals on fitday long enough to know how much to eat. My routine is admittedly a bit stale and could use an overhaul, but I doubt that's going to lead to some kind of new mass explosion.
Has anyone else experienced this? Am I up the genetic **** creek here? Is there not much left for the genetically-average individual to hope for in terms of LBM after the first couple years of dedicated training?
A couple of years really isn't that long. Your gains will be slower but they should still come as long as your routine, diet and rest are in check. I've been lifting since '89 and still am able to notice progression. Very few people if any ever reach their genetic potential, so that's a decent goal to continue striving for.
Don't look for "mass explosion". Slow but steady progress after the "newbie" gains is more realistic.
Keep in mind that gains are not linear, either. I've gone for months with seemingly no progress gaining muscle, then in a month gained 10 pounds.
Squats work better than supplements.
"You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
"You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
I has a blog.
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I am not so concerned with gaining lbm or weight. Gaining strength is key right now. I would love to stay at my current weight and deadlift 500lbs. That would look more impressive than if I was like 220lbs and deadlifting 500lbs. It creates the illusion that I might be superman hehe.
From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)
Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]
Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs
Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5
I'm going for strength right now (particularly in the deadlift). The weight I can lift keeps increasing which is the best indicator of progression. Mind you it's not huge gains and every now and then I hit a temporary plateau. I simply adjust things around until I start progressing again. Keeping a journal is very important in this regard, so you can look at what you did last month or the month before that and see what is happening. A journal provides valuable feedback. If you keep a detailed one you can also see what works and what didn't. So that's how I can quantify that.
My goals have also changed. At one time I wanted to be big, then have good endurance, then look good....Now I'm all about staying healthy and getting as strong as possible, so that when the eventual slide comes, I'll start from a higher point and take longer to get feeble and frail when I am old.
I am speaking strictly of gaining LBM. If your goal has been strength, then that's good, but I'm looking for people's experiences with gaining LBM after they've already been training and eating hard for 2+ years, regardless of what strength gains they may or may not have achieved.
Last edited by SpecialK; 08-06-2007 at 09:50 PM.
bump - no one who has been training 2+ years has anything to add?
You say your routine is a bit stale... I'm no expert, but I heard you can break through these plateaus with VARIETY... add all kinds of variance,... rep ranges, compound lifts, change the sequence, do pyramids, pre-exhaustion.. try everything!
Or maybe you're already doing these things, I dunno...
6'2" | 215 lbs
B320 S315 D440 = 1075
The Road to 1200
I'm always open to suggestions and critique, so stop by and help a brother out!
"Determination is the wake-up call to the human will." - TR
Your newbie gains are over and your finding out how good your diet and training realy is.
YOU CANT BUY STRENGTH
As for the training, tell me - what is the one perfect routine? The one routine that if I followed it, we could rule it out as the cause for why my LBM gains (but not strength) have slowed down so much, relative to my first 2 years.
The perfect routine is a routine that always changes to give you the best gains posible, I like the conjugated method that westside uses. Wich can be tweaked to suit bodybuilding better while still makeing great strength gains.
If you are gaining fat that means your body is in a great condition to put on muscle, the only difference between now and when you first started is that now your body is used to your way of training and it has no reason to change.
Everytime you pick a new excercise you get a brief period of newbie gains on it, because its new. Just like a new lifter makes fast progress, its because every style of training is new to him.
People wonder why they arent makeing gains anymore on thier 3x10 program the reason is thier body is used to those reps, that intensity, that excercise, it has adapted to do that excercise so it can causeing the least dammage to its self so you have a better chance of survival why would it change if there is no auditional demand on it.
The secret is finding the most effective way to create auditional demand.
YOU CANT BUY STRENGTH
That was exactly my point! A LBM plateau has to be treated the exact same way as a strength plateau... you have to find a new way to stress the muscles,.. the original poster described his routine as "stale".. that has to be a red flag that something needs to change... I'm a bit pissed at the poster who just dismissed this advice, I think it is the best thing anyone could have said.
Good post Leeman!
Again to reiterate what Paul said.
I've also gone for months seemingly with little muscle gain only to gain a significant amount in 1-2 months. Not really sure why the body lags like that just that it does.
I also think you should change your routine ASAP. You got everything else in check. Why not give it a try and see if it works.
Getting back in the groove
"I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
ATF squat- 275 RAW
Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)
A couple comments:
1. Please explain to me how my body could have "adapted" to my routines in regards to LBM, but not strength. Remember, I have been making steady progress in strength ever since I have started. It's only the LBM I have an issue with.
2. So tell me, how much muscle I am supposed to be putting on each year after the first 2?
3. Just because you are gaining fat doesn't mean all of it *could* be muscle. Excess calories always lead to fat gain, but there is a limit to how much muscle you can put on. I'm not saying I've necessarily reached that limit, but you can't keep adding more forever.
FYI, I plan to keep clean bulking through the winter. I will change my routine soon and see how it goes. I figure I have nothing to lose at this point. I'm thinking I'll go with some type of periodization routine, although I'll have to do some more research to see exactly which one. I just want to wait a bit and hopefully my wrist will finish healing, as right now I am unable to do any tricep work because of wrist pain.
Last edited by SpecialK; 08-10-2007 at 07:05 PM.
There is a slight difference between strength gains and muscle mass gains because there are prety small people who can lift alot and huge people who lift alot but not enough to jusity thier size. You can make steady strength gains without muscle mass by changeing your form, useing lower reps to get used to a higher % of your max getting, faster bar speed and even just practicing the lift more often like the sheiko programs.
As much as you can, I had been lifting for 2 years about 3 months ago since then I have went from 247-261 and lost half a inch off mywaist and put 65lbs on my bench.2. So tell me, how much muscle I am supposed to be putting on each year after the first 2?
What I was saying is your eating enough calories to put on the muscle your just not stimulateing the muscle well enough for it to want to make more.3. Just because you are gaining fat doesn't mean all of it *could* be muscle. Excess calories always lead to fat gain, but there is a limit to how much muscle you can put on. I'm not saying I've necessarily reached that limit, but you can't keep adding more forever.
Wrist wraps help alot as far as wrist pain goes, I personaly dont like periodization much but it works for alot of people so its worth a try I guess.FYI, I plan to keep clean bulking through the winter. I will change my routine soon and see how it goes. I figure I have nothing to lose at this point. I'm thinking I'll go with some type of periodization routine, although I'll have to do some more research to see exactly which one. I just want to wait a bit and hopefully my wrist will finish healing, as right now I am unable to do any tricep work because of wrist pain.
If you are just trying to put on muscle I dont think its posible to go wrong with 20 rep squats...
Last edited by Leeman; 08-10-2007 at 09:32 PM.
YOU CANT BUY STRENGTH