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Thread: Strength gains with higher reps?

  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member SaintGJR's Avatar
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    Strength gains with higher reps?

    Just had a thought - i have always thought that higher reps like 8-12 are more hypertrophy reps.

    Well - obviously - it is good to get stronger even if you adopt higher repetition ranges.

    How has your strength gone up - for those who have used higher repetitions rather than lower reps like 5x5.

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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintGJR View Post
    Just had a thought - i have always thought that higher reps like 8-12 are more hypertrophy reps.

    Well - obviously - it is good to get stronger even if you adopt higher repetition ranges.

    How has your strength gone up - for those who have used higher repetitions rather than lower reps like 5x5.
    For me, I have been able to break through barriers/plateaus/walls through increasing reps at a weight equal to 80-90% of 1 rep max. When I broke through the 400lbs barrier for the deadlift, I didn't just lift 400lbs one day. Instead I used a correlated chart and increased my reps at 315lbs. When I was able to do 8 or 9 in a row, one day I decided to deadlift 405lbs, which the chart said I should be able to do, and I did.
    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    Chubbilicious. VikingWarlord's Avatar
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    Seems like as long as you're pushing yourself and lifting heavy ****, you'll probably get stronger. You play like you practice, so if you stick with high rep sets, you'll be able to increase your working weight on those high rep sets.

    I don't think it will necessarily translate to a huge increase in a 1RM or anything like training for it. "Strength gain" is relative to how you measure it.
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    Wannabebig Member SaintGJR's Avatar
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    Sounds good - do you have that chart so i could see it please?

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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintGJR View Post
    Sounds good - do you have that chart so i could see it please?
    http://www.criticalbench.com/chart.htm

    Something like that is good for many compound exercises. You can find one on Bill Starr's 5x5 internet site too. There is a general formula that does this for most muscle groups. And yes, it does work! Muscles haven't advanced that much in the past 100000 years LOL.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    I don't trust that chart when it comes to Deadlifting max.

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    Wannabebig Member SaintGJR's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link.

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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Yea, charts, in myexperience are BS.
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  9. #9
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackboard View Post
    I don't trust that chart when it comes to Deadlifting max.
    It has worked for me so far. I would of never increased my deadlift to 420lbs in about 1 year from 45lbs without them.
    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Superman- View Post
    It has worked for me so far. I would of never increased my deadlift to 420lbs in about 1 year from 45lbs without them.

    Thats good news for you. I train mainly singles in the deadlift
    so I don't come close to repping out what I'm suppose to.

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    Superman,
    For me, I have been able to break through barriers/plateaus/walls through increasing reps at a weight equal to 80-90% of 1 rep max.
    So, if one wanted to increase his or her benchpress most quickly, would he or she be better served by using higher weight at lower reps, or increasing the number of reps at the same weight for a while, and then moving up in weight?

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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumorai View Post
    Superman,


    So, if one wanted to increase his or her benchpress most quickly, would he or she be better served by using higher weight at lower reps, or increasing the number of reps at the same weight for a while, and then moving up in weight?
    I am no expert. However, in the year I have been training and reading up on this stuff and from experience, I have always been able to make great gains from hitting a peak and then dropping to about 80-90% of that peak and increasing the reps. For me it makes sense to be able to increase the reps vs. increasing your max. For example if your max bench is 200lbs and this is all you can do for 1 rep exactly, why would you keep benching with 200lbs? To me it makes no sense. Instead bench with like 180lbs. Increase the reps with the 180lbs. Use the charts (there are more than 1) to get an idea of how many reps you need to get a correlated max of say 210lbs. Once you hit that, go for the 210lbs. For me it has always proven to be true. Again, I'm no expert, just your average ectomorph making great gains weekly.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    Thanks Sman. That makes a helluvalotta sense to me. My max at bench right now is prolly about 175. Think that's pathetic...well, also consider the fact that I am 6'4" and 320+ pounds. Now that, is really ****ing pathetic. Right now I am doing some reverse pyramid thing for three sets.(start off with 165 lbs, do that like twice, and then go down in weight, and up in reps from there.)

    What do you recommend I do in this situation? I can get 165 twice, and that makes my projected max 175. But anyway, what do you think I should do?
    And FWIW, my muscles have always felt "better" just after doing a workout where I've used 10 reps per set, as opposed to a low-rep workout(<=5reps).

  14. #14
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumorai View Post
    Thanks Sman. That makes a helluvalotta sense to me. My max at bench right now is prolly about 175. Think that's pathetic...well, also consider the fact that I am 6'4" and 320+ pounds. Now that, is really ****ing pathetic. Right now I am doing some reverse pyramid thing for three sets.(start off with 165 lbs, do that like twice, and then go down in weight, and up in reps from there.)

    What do you recommend I do in this situation? I can get 165 twice, and that makes my projected max 175. But anyway, what do you think I should do?
    And FWIW, my muscles have always felt "better" just after doing a workout where I've used 10 reps per set, as opposed to a low-rep workout(<=5reps).
    If you can only do 165 twice, I'd lower it to around 150 and rep that out. You gotta build some muscle endurance. Try to get a weight where you can rep it 5 times. Then your goal should be to rep that weight 6 or more times. Then try out your max with a spotter of course and use 100% effort.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    Hey Sup. I've got a couple more questions:

    1.How long should I rest between sets?
    Because if its not very long, I will not be able to crank out the same amount of reps, at the same weight, on subsequent sets.

    2. When I am able to do six, how much should I increase the weight by?

  16. #16
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumorai View Post
    Hey Sup. I've got a couple more questions:

    1.How long should I rest between sets?
    Because if its not very long, I will not be able to crank out the same amount of reps, at the same weight, on subsequent sets.

    2. When I am able to do six, how much should I increase the weight by?
    Got your message:

    1. I don't worry about rest too much. This to me is too insignificant of a variable compared to the big picture of just lifting heavy @#% weights and putting out 100% effort on every lift. Rest as long as you think is necessary but not so long that you are no longer warm and ready.

    2. I would just focus on increasing the reps to say something like 10. Because you are using a relatively light weight to rep out, you should concentrate on building muscle endurance and your cns so your body gets used to the motion of benching. This goes for any lift you are doing. Personally, I would do 150lbs of bench at 10 reps at least before moving on. I would even drop it to 135lbs (easier to rack up haha) and try to do 15 or 20 reps.

    Good luck!
    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

  17. #17
    Watchya talkn bout willis
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    I don't know, I always get my best strength gains our of lower weights from like 3-5 or even doubles.
    Weight:207
    375/300/365 Goal by summer:415/315/415

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    Thanks so much Superman.

    me in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by -Superman- View Post
    Got your message:

    1. I don't worry about rest too much. This to me is too insignificant of a variable compared to the big picture of just lifting heavy @#% weights and putting out 100% effort on every lift. Rest as long as you think is necessary but not so long that you are no longer warm and ready.

    Is five to six minutes of rest between sets okay? Because that is about how much time it will take(minimum) for me to have any chance of lifting the same amount of weight, for the same amount of reps, in the next set. And I would probably need even more rest to lift the third set(7-8 minutes at least).
    I took an average of probably about four to five minutes rest between sets last night and it looked just like this:

    1x5@150
    1x4@150
    1x3@150

    I think that I have something unusually wrong with my endurance.



    2. I would just focus on increasing the reps to say something like 10. Because you are using a relatively light weight to rep out, you should concentrate on building muscle endurance and your cns so your body gets used to the motion of benching. This goes for any lift you are doing. Personally, I would do 150lbs of bench at 10 reps at least before moving on. I would even drop it to 135lbs (easier to rack up haha) and try to do 15 or 20 reps.

    So which are you recommending? Getting 150 up to 10 reps, and then moving on? Or taking 135 to 15 to 20 reps, then moving on?
    Or are you just putting the possibilities out there and leaving it up to me?

    Also, when I do move on to a higher weight, by how much should I increase? Is there a general rule of thumb regardless of weight? Five pounds sounds familiar for some reason.


    Good luck!

  19. #19
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Is five to six minutes of rest between sets okay? Because that is about how much time it will take(minimum) for me to have any chance of lifting the same amount of weight, for the same amount of reps, in the next set. And I would probably need even more rest to lift the third set(7-8 minutes at least).
    I took an average of probably about four to five minutes rest between sets last night and it looked just like this:

    1x5@150
    1x4@150
    1x3@150

    I think that I have something unusually wrong with my endurance.

    I think your rest time should be a little less. That is too much time spent not doing anything in the gym. I would lower your bench then if 150lbs is allowing you to just do that. Try 135lbs for now. Nothing is wrong with your endurance. You are just not in shape yet. Keep training and it will improve.

    So which are you recommending? Getting 150 up to 10 reps, and then moving on? Or taking 135 to 15 to 20 reps, then moving on?
    Or are you just putting the possibilities out there and leaving it up to me?

    Also, when I do move on to a higher weight, by how much should I increase? Is there a general rule of thumb regardless of weight? Five pounds sounds familiar for some reason.

    Those are just possibilities. I don't believe in general rules for increasing the weights. You will know if you can increase to a certain weight or not. I increase the weights anywhere from 5-20lbs. It depends on how I feel and the state of my muscles are in.

    To increase your bench faster, I would train the triceps as well. You can push yourself more on other chest press machines too. It really depends on how hard you want to push your body to. Vomiting or getting extremely sore shouldn't hold you back if you really want it.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    Sounds good.

    btw, I don't work out in a gym, I work out in a basement, so I am limited in the exercises I can do. I can do some skull-crushers though. I think I will start doing that since you said tricep exercises can help my bench.

    I do have some concerns about the high reps though. I just found out that you cannot increase muscle mass, while losing weight. And apparently, high weights increase mass, while lower weights make you stronger.(I used to think that lower weights did both). I want *some* hypertrophy, but mainly what I want to get is stronger. Also, if putting on muscle mass would help me lose more weight in the long run, then I would like to do that. But I have cut down my calories to 2500-3000 per day. So, if I am lifting higher reps, and therefore lifting for hypertrophy mainly, am I not going to achieve that hypertrophy if I am losing weight/at a caloric defecit?
    (I have decreased caloric intake, but I don't think I'm losing weight yet because I'm not on a defecit...but I mean *if* I was losing weight)
    Basically, here are my main goals, some of them may complement each other, and probably do...but I'm not sure how and to what extent:

    1. Lose the boobs
    2. Get stronger(I would like to have a BP of at least 300 preferably 400, and a deadlift of about 500)
    3. Lose significant body fat(I am 320+ now, if I get down to 250 and stay there, I will be happy).
    4. Achieve some hypertrophy. I don't want to look like Dorian Yates, I mean that's really cool and everything. But its not for me, and I couldn't achieve that even if I wanted to. Basically, I want some degree of hypertrophy above that of the average joe. But hypertrophy is last on my list here for a reason.

    Here are my new questions:
    1. How does high rep training mesh with my priorities?
    2. For that matter, what do you think of my priorities?
    3. Should I be trying to achieve a caloric defecit at this point, or should I try to "bulk"? This is probably my dumbest question, as i should probably lose weight, but I've been reading that you can't gain muscle while losing weight, and if you gain muscle("bulk") and then lose weight("cut) its actually better that way because you won't have to "cut" twice if you want to put muscle mass on later, and it will help you lose more weight if you have the muscle mass on first.

    To the OP: I hope I am not derailing your thread if you want, Superman and I can take this conversation to PM. Maybe what we are talking about is informative to you to. So just let me know if its not cool.

  21. #21
    cakin Cirino83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumorai View Post

    1.How long should I rest between sets?
    with heavy compounds, I tend to rest 2-4 minutes between sets. With accessory work I rest maybe 1 minute.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Vapour Trails's Avatar
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    Yes, but obviously not as fast.
    That's a picture of Scarlett Johansson.

  23. #23
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    Thanks for the advice C. I'll try to keep to like 2.5 tops, I think.

    btw, is it actually that beneficial to rest the muscle group for a day after work out? For example, I lifted yesterday, so I can't do it today? Would it subtract from your gains if you work out five days a week, and just took the weekends off?
    Last edited by Sumorai; 09-18-2007 at 11:59 AM.

  24. #24
    cakin Cirino83's Avatar
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    You should look into either BGB or one of the WBB routines in the sticky section. They are I believe 4-day splits. BGB targets each muscle once directly and once indirectly with a day or two rest in between.

  25. #25
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumorai View Post
    Sounds good.

    btw, I don't work out in a gym, I work out in a basement, so I am limited in the exercises I can do. I can do some skull-crushers though. I think I will start doing that since you said tricep exercises can help my bench.

    I do have some concerns about the high reps though. I just found out that you cannot increase muscle mass, while losing weight. And apparently, high weights increase mass, while lower weights make you stronger.(I used to think that lower weights did both). I want *some* hypertrophy, but mainly what I want to get is stronger. Also, if putting on muscle mass would help me lose more weight in the long run, then I would like to do that. But I have cut down my calories to 2500-3000 per day. So, if I am lifting higher reps, and therefore lifting for hypertrophy mainly, am I not going to achieve that hypertrophy if I am losing weight/at a caloric defecit?
    (I have decreased caloric intake, but I don't think I'm losing weight yet because I'm not on a defecit...but I mean *if* I was losing weight)
    Basically, here are my main goals, some of them may complement each other, and probably do...but I'm not sure how and to what extent:

    1. Lose the boobs
    2. Get stronger(I would like to have a BP of at least 300 preferably 400, and a deadlift of about 500)
    3. Lose significant body fat(I am 320+ now, if I get down to 250 and stay there, I will be happy).
    4. Achieve some hypertrophy. I don't want to look like Dorian Yates, I mean that's really cool and everything. But its not for me, and I couldn't achieve that even if I wanted to. Basically, I want some degree of hypertrophy above that of the average joe. But hypertrophy is last on my list here for a reason.

    Here are my new questions:
    1. How does high rep training mesh with my priorities?
    2. For that matter, what do you think of my priorities?
    3. Should I be trying to achieve a caloric defecit at this point, or should I try to "bulk"? This is probably my dumbest question, as i should probably lose weight, but I've been reading that you can't gain muscle while losing weight, and if you gain muscle("bulk") and then lose weight("cut) its actually better that way because you won't have to "cut" twice if you want to put muscle mass on later, and it will help you lose more weight if you have the muscle mass on first.

    To the OP: I hope I am not derailing your thread if you want, Superman and I can take this conversation to PM. Maybe what we are talking about is informative to you to. So just let me know if its not cool.
    I think you should realize that this goal you have won't be easy. It may take 2-3 years or more. So it will take extreme dedication, especially to lose the man boobs and to get the lifts up to where you want. 500lbs deadlift ain't no joke. 300lbs bench is definitely not easy by a long shot. I rarely see anyone put 3 plates to a side and bench that in any gym. Obviously it is possible, but it isn't as common as seeing a 225lbs bench or a 300lbs squat. I think you should mix it up. I don't see why you wouldn't want to do both reps and increase the weight.

    You should get on a cut so you can achieve your first goal. If you never achieve that, I doubt you will be as motivated a year from now and in the same position but just stronger. You should find out your BF% and drop that to 20% or less.

    Overall, if I were you, and your appearance is a priority, I would do the following:

    -Forget about your BP or deadlift goals now. Lift heavy and rep it out to build your CNS.
    -Hit the treadmill or bike or some cardio everyday until you get to where you want.
    -Maintain your diet.
    -Once you reach a weight you like, then hit the weights and goals.

    For me the most important thing if I were you would be to lose the weight.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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