The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Is hypertrophy essential for endurance gains?

    Is there a relationship between hypertrophy and endurance?
    I am aware that high reps are believed to produce both. However, are increases in hypertrophy necessary for increases in endurance? I am asking because I am on a caloric defecit, and I do not expect significant gains in muscle mass. But yet, I do some high rep training for endurance. So, can I have significant endurance gains without significant mass gains?

    Thank you for your time.
    Last edited by Sumorai; 09-26-2007 at 10:49 AM.

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  3. #2
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Endurance training leads more to atrophy than hypertrophy. Your body only needs the necessary muscle in order to move the minimal amount of weight repetitively. Extra muscle does no work and is quickly catabolized and utilized to supply energy.

    To answer your question: you can expect significant mass decreases with your significant endurance gains. You don't see many big marathon runners do you?
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield View Post
    Endurance training leads more to atrophy than hypertrophy. Your body only needs the necessary muscle in order to move the minimal amount of weight repetitively. Extra muscle does no work and is quickly catabolized and utilized to supply energy.

    To answer your question: you can expect significant mass decreases with your significant endurance gains. You don't see many big marathon runners do you?
    Thank you for your reply, HomeYield. But I believe you misunderstand me. When I say high reps, I mean reps, at around 8-12. Repetitions in that range, are believed by many to contribute to hypertrophy AND endurance. I was simply asking if one can derive the benefit of endurance from that amount of reps, without deriving the hypertrophy as well.

  5. #4
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Endurance for what? Lifting? Anything else and it's not endurance training. Endurance is aerobic work. Lifting in most capacities is anaerobic. Even "higher" rep ranges like 8-12. If you want "endurance" then you need to be lifting above 20 reps.

    Either way, in a caloric deficit you're pretty much guaranteed not to put on any mass.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield View Post
    Endurance for what? Lifting? Anything else and it's not endurance training. Endurance is aerobic work. Lifting in most capacities is anaerobic. Even "higher" rep ranges like 8-12. If you want "endurance" then you need to be lifting above 20 reps.
    This seems to conflict with many things I have read.
    Are you saying, for example, that 10 reps will give one no more increased endurance than 3 reps?

    Either way, in a caloric deficit you're pretty much guaranteed not to put on any mass.
    That is the consensus.

  7. #6
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    What kind of endurance are you looking for?
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield View Post
    What kind of endurance are you looking for?
    Well,I do not know if I am seeking any specific type of particular endurance. I do not mean "cardiovascular" endurance if that is what you are asking(although that would be nice, but I do not expect to get that from weight training. I plan on doing cardio with on my bicycle....eventually. But the bike is mainly for weight loss.)
    I want endurance that is applicable for weight lifting. Strength is more important to me though. But muscular endurance is also something I am striving for.
    Last edited by Sumorai; 09-26-2007 at 12:55 PM.

  9. #8
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    It's going to be more a matter of strength. The difference in doing 200lbs for 3 reps or 200lbs for 6 reps is strength, not endurance. Train to get stronger.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  10. #9
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
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    You may not build muscle mass during a cut, but you can build quite a bit of strength if you are a newb.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield View Post
    It's going to be more a matter of strength. The difference in doing 200lbs for 3 reps or 200lbs for 6 reps is strength, not endurance. Train to get stronger.
    I'm not sure thats always the case. I believe SmokinHawk (member) trained 10 sets of 10 on the Bench when he was younger and now he's able to bang out mega reps with 300+ just to warm up without much fatigue.

    My Deadlift is just the opposite. I'm close to 500lb but I can't rep out 405 for much reps.(I train singles)

    Most of the time you're right but I think people can program their bodies for success in higher reps or with just singles.
    Last edited by blackboard; 09-27-2007 at 09:38 AM.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackboard View Post
    I'm not sure thats always the case. I believe SmokinHawk (member) trained 10 sets of 10 on the Bench when he was younger and now he's able to bang out mega reps with 300+ just to warm up without much fatigue.
    Perhaps appropriately enough, it is the user, smokinhawk, who has the title "the exception to said rule" under his name.

  13. #12
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    your body will adapt to things if you do them over and over, they will grow stronger from it and do what it takes if it constantly sees that it is doing the same things

    i do allot of sets and allot of reps 10, less now then I used to do then. my body has adapted in endurance and strength when i constantly move up the poundage.
    i now prefer to do 3 working sets of 10 reps as heavy as i can go after a warm up of 135x7x7x7, then 225x10), then after that do lower reps in the 3-1 range with about 3-4 sets of that. I believe the 10 reps build a good strength base and the lower reps help me in my max strength, as some times i can be strong in my rep weight but not in my single weight or vise versa.
    I do believe i put on a good bit of size doing my 10x10 and 5 sets of ten i have done in the past and this has made my benchpress muscles able to take more abuse, i just had to scale it back some as I have gotten older as my tendons and muscles cant take as much when I use more weight and move up quickly on my bench.

    when i do the a routine like (5/29/07)
    225x10
    325x10 for 3 sets
    365x3
    385x1 (attempted 2)
    395x1
    405x1
    410xmiss
    (note the above reps other then the 225x10 are not strict reps)

    my body adapts to it and its used to doing heavier sets after i get my working sets in. The muscles will grow when you use more weight for everything.
    Last edited by smokinHawk; 10-01-2007 at 08:32 AM.

  14. #13
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    Thanks for the reply Hawk. That seems like a very, very intense routine that you have.

  15. #14
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield View Post
    It's going to be more a matter of strength. The difference in doing 200lbs for 3 reps or 200lbs for 6 reps is strength, not endurance. Train to get stronger.


    When it comes to weight training endurance, it's a good portion dependent on your overall cardiovascular conditioning because that's what regulates heart rate and oxygen. Run out of oxygen to the muscles and they will deplete in strength pretty quickly. That said, you can only train endurance in Type II fibers (the ones that provide the most "strength" to a lift) so much.
    Last edited by Guido; 10-01-2007 at 03:47 PM.
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  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post


    When it comes to weight training endurance, it's a good portion dependent on your overall cardiovascular conditioning because that's what regulates heart rate and oxygen. Run out of oxygen to the muscles and they will deplete in strength pretty quickly. That said, you can only train endurance in Type II fibers (the ones that provide the most "strength" to a lift) so much.
    Since I will not be getting significant endurance gains from 8-12 reps, nor will I be getting mass gains(I am at a defecit), is there any point in my incorporating the 8-12 range in my routine?

    Wouldn't the 8-12 range still be good for training once a week(as a "light day"), so I will not overtax my CNS? So is the priniciple of having a "light day" reason enough to keep that range as part of my routine?

    edit:
    Even the 8-12 reps, will still do some training of your nervous system right? Not as much as the 2-4 range, but still some right?

    In other words, one can still make strength gains with the 8-12 rep range(even on a caloric defecit and therefore without hypertrophy).
    Is this correct?
    Last edited by Sumorai; 10-01-2007 at 04:00 PM.

  17. #16
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    when i do 8-10 reps for my working sets i do not consider it a light day, but rather a heavy day.
    if you give 100% effort on your lifts it would be a heavy day.
    if you give 50-70% i consider that a light day, basically doing an easy workout, not pushing your self but going through the motions.

    i still think you can grow muscles under a cut if you apply enough effort.
    sure your body is able to grow muscle easier under a calorie surplus but i would think (nothing i have read/heard to back this up) muscles can feed off of fat.

    if you have watched Mike wolfe's transformation to 404lbs to 330 it is clear to me he put on some more muscle and lost allot of fat.

  18. #17
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinHawk View Post
    i still think you can grow muscles under a cut if you apply enough effort.
    sure your body is able to grow muscle easier under a calorie surplus but i would think (nothing i have read/heard to back this up) muscles can feed off of fat.

    if you have watched Mike wolfe's transformation to 404lbs to 330 it is clear to me he put on some more muscle and lost allot of fat.
    Not quite. Muscles do not "feed off of fat". It's simply not possible to gain muscle under a caloric deficit. Even Mike Wolfe did not lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Yes, his muscle is more visible now because of his fat loss, but he did not gain muscle while losing 70+ lbs. He did do a great job of maintaining and even gaining strength, however, which is not the same thing and more dependent on neural adaptation than muscle growth.
    5'9" 195 lbs
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  19. #18
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    ^^

    I agree. Trying to lose a lot of weight is going to make it difficult to gain muscle. You can, however, build muscle at the expense of body fat if you were to eat at a perfectly maintaining caloric level.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    ^^

    You can, however, build muscle at the expense of body fat if you were to eat at a perfectly maintaining caloric level.
    How does one determine this perfectly maintaining caloric level?
    You do not mean that calculation where you multiply your bodyweight by 12, do you?

  21. #20
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    No. Those arent always accurate. The best way would be to track everything you eat for an extended period of time until you find that magic number. If you search for "recomposition" you should find what Im talking about. Otherwise, I can track it down for you
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

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