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Thread: Based on Fuzzy's Interpretation On Lifting

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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Based on Fuzzy's Interpretation On Lifting

    So yeah I got a good memory and was remembering what Fuzzy posted awhile ago on this site. It got me thinking. I am still thinking hehe. Basically he said or I thought he said that overtraining is a myth. He said that it isn't overtraining but undereating.

    Fuzzy, if you didn't mean this, well I am now hehe.

    So my question is that maybe you could accelerate growth by doing this. Could it be possible to eat enough to catch up with working out 5 times or more a week? If you are constantly fueling your body around the clock (5000+ calories a day or more), could you then work out more? The key word is more and not times per week. If you can work out at all more than normal by eating more, then this could help a lot.
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    WBB's Juggernaut/Liason BigCorey75's Avatar
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    but there is a limit to how much fod your body will ultimately be able to process in a given day and once u reach this your body will just reject the rest and with that limited amount of food if you consistenelty train over that you will eventually over train...


    there is an upper limit on training as well as food intake



    i think what fuzzy was getting at is the reason most people over train is because they under eat, not because they neccessarily train to hard..


    over training does exist but i dont see anyone on hear who near approaches the overall fatigue leves to equate over training, its alot easier to do than people assume, i find it rather funny when i a guy post a workout routine where he does 15 sets for chest in his workout once a week, and the first 5 post will be "dude ur gonna over train ur chest"

    i do 15-20 sets twice a week and ive yet to over train my pecs, ever.


    but i agree with him that we can push our bodies further than we can imagine.


    i doubt anyone hear has ever expereinced TRUE over training
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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCorey75 View Post
    but there is a limit to how much fod your body will ultimately be able to process in a given day and once u reach this your body will just reject the rest and with that limited amount of food if you consistenelty train over that you will eventually over train...


    there is an upper limit on training as well as food intake



    i think what fuzzy was getting at is the reason most people over train is because they under eat, not because they neccessarily train to hard..


    over training does exist but i dont see anyone on hear who near approaches the overall fatigue leves to equate over training, its alot easier to do than people assume, i find it rather funny when i a guy post a workout routine where he does 15 sets for chest in his workout once a week, and the first 5 post will be "dude ur gonna over train ur chest"

    i do 15-20 sets twice a week and ive yet to over train my pecs, ever.


    but i agree with him that we can push our bodies further than we can imagine.


    i doubt anyone hear has ever expereinced TRUE over training
    Excellent. That is the motivation I needed. While most people on here and in real life worry about routines, I try to find ways to eat more and more efficiently. Basically my whole bodybuilding routine revolves around what I will be eating, not what I will be lifting. I am hoping I can get back in the 180's or 190's by the end of this month. I have already gained 5lbs since the 1st of December.
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    There is a limit, individual though it may be. I'm sure Fuzzy wasn't speaking literally.

    Tissue adaptation only happens so fast, regardless of the help given to it.
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    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borris View Post
    There is a limit, individual though it may be. I'm sure Fuzzy wasn't speaking literally.

    Tissue adaptation only happens so fast, regardless of the help given to it.
    Well I am trying to hit 30lbs in 30 days. It is a high goal, but I believe anything is possible. I gained almost 40lbs last fall but I kind of slowed down toward the winter months due to skiing and running around in the snow.
    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

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    how much of that is fat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCorey75 View Post
    i doubt anyone hear has ever expereinced TRUE over training



    (raises hand)

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    i used to think this as well, training harder and longer, eating more, would it result in more? probably not, but who knows.
    2000 or bust

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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Enzymes my friend, the answer lies in enzymes. These guys are responsible for basically EVERY chemical reaction in our body. They lower the activation energy for basically every biochemical reaction I can think of. The result is a faster reaction that takes nanoseconds instead of 2 billion years (yes, 2 billion years). But, there is a term called Vmax which is the fastest an enzyme can do its job. Vmax is reached when the substrate concentration (the concentration of what its breaking up) reaches a certain point.

    Basically, if we have 10 guys moving stones from one place to the other, we have to supply them with stones to move. If you dont supply them fast enough youll have guys waiting around doing nothing. If you give them too much, they wont be able to get rid of the stones before the next shipment arrives. There is a balance that must be kept.

    How does this apply? Well you cant just eat 10 000 calories and expect your body to go into overdrive. It takes time to build and break things which all rely on enzymes. If your over eating, you are maxing out your enzymes. BUT Vmax isnt a set number. Lets say Vmax starts when the substrate concentration is 10 and has a value of 4. If you raise the substrate concentration to say 20, the speed at which the enzyme metabolizes will bump up to 4.3. Sure, the rate goes higher but you had to double the concentration (ie eat more)!

    Heres a graph:


    See where the graph levels out? Thats Vmax, the highest rate of the enzyme.

    But back to the matter at hand... Fuzzy says you can just eat more and solve the problem... I disagree. While most people arent eating enough, if your eating over maintenance you should be fine in these terms.

    Ill throw it back now. If your your working your muscles you are creating damage. If you feed your body enough it SHOULD repair it quickly using enzymes. But how quickly? I cant say because I dont have the numbers. But what I can say is that eating more food should speed up the process. How much food? Enough that your gaining weight. When muscle tissue creation is at its max the rest of the energy will be converted to fat. This in my opinion is a great indicator.
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 12-03-2007 at 07:06 PM.

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    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Another thing that people tend to forget is that overtraining comes in a number of different way. I dont think I have ever been overtrained to the point that there where negative hormonol effects or exhaustion in other ways. But I have overtrained to the point that I get overuse injuries, tendonis issues that then lead to me taking time off. It's the same thing as runners getting IT band syndrome. So there are lots of factors to take into account.
    Last edited by smalls; 12-03-2007 at 07:15 PM.
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    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Fuzzy's theory is incorrect. John Parillo used to say basically the same thing.

    If you eat too much you will simply get fat. Your body can only tolerate so much intense training. Eating more will work to a certain point, but there is a limit.


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    romantic relations w/bacon Indifference's Avatar
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    Wow. I think I just learned a lot from BF's post. BF are you in college/university and/or what major? (whered you learn that is what im asking)
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    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Fuzzy's theory is incorrect. John Parillo used to say basically the same thing.

    If you eat too much you will simply get fat. Your body can only tolerate so much intense training. Eating more will work to a certain point, but there is a limit.
    Actually, I remember that. I remember, for a while in the 80s, A LOT of bodybuilders were spewing that...
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    Senior Member cphafner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Superman- View Post
    Well I am trying to hit 30lbs in 30 days. It is a high goal, but I believe anything is possible. I gained almost 40lbs last fall but I kind of slowed down toward the winter months due to skiing and running around in the snow.
    What are your goals? 30lbs in 30days will be mostly water and fat. You will lose almost all of it during a cut. I'll reserve judgement depending on your goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Superman- View Post
    Well I am trying to hit 30lbs in 30 days. It is a high goal, but I believe anything is possible. I gained almost 40lbs last fall but I kind of slowed down toward the winter months due to skiing and running around in the snow.
    30 pounds in 30 days? That's pretty impressive. You sure to get some good strength gains during that mini bulk. Plus, it will be tons of fun. My first month of bulking was about 20 pounds in 30 days. It's slowing down now. I'm using this approach basically cuz I'm too lazy to hit an exact number of calories so I usually go over my maintainence by about 1000 cals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphafner View Post
    What are your goals? 30lbs in 30days will be mostly water and fat. You will lose almost all of it during a cut. I'll reserve judgement depending on your goals.
    Goal is just to be 200lbs of anything. I am already pretty cut (~10% or less). No major strength gains or anything either. I think I can come close, maybe to 15 or 20lbs, but I don't want to set low limits like that. Last year I was able to hit 40lbs in a little longer time frame. Yeah I know it will be a lot of fat and water, but I am already pretty cut. I just would like to get to around 200lbs and then decide what I want to do from there. My metabolism is pretty fast so I can always turn back.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickyjune26 View Post
    30 pounds in 30 days? That's pretty impressive. You sure to get some good strength gains during that mini bulk. Plus, it will be tons of fun. My first month of bulking was about 20 pounds in 30 days. It's slowing down now. I'm using this approach basically cuz I'm too lazy to hit an exact number of calories so I usually go over my maintainence by about 1000 cals.
    I don't know how much fun it will be. I really hate eating, but can force myself to eat. I am not counting calories either. I am just eating as much as I can. It worked last fall/winter. Hopefully I do something close again this winter.
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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indifference View Post
    Wow. I think I just learned a lot from BF's post. BF are you in college/university and/or what major? (whered you learn that is what im asking)
    Im in second year honours chemistry specialization at the University of Western Ontario.

    I learned the enzyme stuff last year in bio and in chem. We went through it again this year and actually got to experiment with enzymes in the lab. Basically we have an indicator that changes colour depending on product concentration (gets dark as there is more product). We basically put the chemicals together and threw it into a spectrometer to get the values.

    The graph we got wasnt nearly as good as the one you see above for many reasons... like it was the first time ever doing it and my friend forgot to shut the spectrometer door.

    But the application to this thread was just a connection I made. As lifters we take advantage of our body's capabilities to grow via enzyme induced reactions. I can be sure that the enzymes I study in the lab are no different than the ones in our body in essence. Science is a great way to learn everything behind lifting. Physics also comes in handy in arm wrestles... More leverage=more torque!
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 12-03-2007 at 11:34 PM.

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    Senior Member tomv's Avatar
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    Overtraining also has a lot to do with CNS. If you're stimulating it too much, irrespective of the food you are eating it's going to be shot.
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    Superman, I don't understand your goal of trying to gain 30lbs in 30 days-

    If you gain mostly fat and water, why would you want to do this? Sure you will gain some muscle with that, definitely, but how much more had you just ate a slight bit over maint? I would guess not much more-

    I will guess what happens with these types of wild bulking cutting cycles, that you will gain muscle and a lot of fat, then you will cut and you will lose fat and a bit of muscle, and end up lower than had you just done a cleaner and slower bulk-

    I'm just curious if you have any reasoning behind your goals that is not obvious?

    You say you just want to be 200, doesn't matter made out of what- that just sounds very bizarre to me-

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    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapour Trails View Post
    Recovery is more than just eating.
    Agreed.

    If I remember correctly, Fuzzy also talked about CNS adaptation to workload (ie: oly lifters who squat 6 days a week) and recovery techniques such as foam rolling, ART and massage therapy.

    If you're trying to drastically increase your workload these are things you should be considering. I would venture to say eating more will help little. The extra work you're doing might raise your maintenance calories but eating a ton over maintenance probably won't help you all that much...
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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    Agreed.

    If I remember correctly, Fuzzy also talked about CNS adaptation to workload (ie: oly lifters who squat 6 days a week) and recovery techniques such as foam rolling, ART and massage therapy.

    If you're trying to drastically increase your workload these are things you should be considering. I would venture to say eating more will help little. The extra work you're doing might raise your maintenance calories but eating a ton over maintenance probably won't help you all that much...
    Exactly.
    Youve maxed out your enzymes.

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    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    Exactly.
    Youve maxed out your enzymes.


    Fine, maxed out your enzymes. Whatever... douche.

    You and your fancy biochem garbage.
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    which enzymes are you talking about BFGUITAR?

    I was under the impression that the 'rate limiting step' so to speak of muscle synthesis was transport to the site that needed it, not the enzymatic reactions that take place in your stomach-

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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadhi_smiles View Post
    which enzymes are you talking about BFGUITAR?

    I was under the impression that the 'rate limiting step' so to speak of muscle synthesis was transport to the site that needed it, not the enzymatic reactions that take place in your stomach-
    First, read my first post and youll see im not only talking about enzymatic activity in digestion. While it plays a roll, im more geared towards the building process. We can break down what we eat easily, its turning most of it into muscle thats the problem.

    The rate limiting step is probably the building of protein and muscle itself. Transporting is easy... our blood stream is efficient. Unless you meant interceullar transportation rather than intracellular?

    It takes time and energy to create such large structures. We renew or digestive system every 3 days (from what I remember), but it takes a week to put several ounces of muscle. Its a very labor intensive energy grabbing process.

    And do you want me to name every single enzyme that is used to make muscle? I would have to look at every single pathway thats involved and what enzyme is used. That involves the krebs cycle, every enzyme in the nucleus... If I were teaching a biochem class I would, but im not.
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 12-04-2007 at 06:46 PM.

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