The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    This is a Les Mills demo of the program that they instruct. My point being that the program that they train requires them to squat no more than parallel. In the demo vid, its a bit above parallel.

    Adding to that, the program performs about 80 squats of various types within 5 minutes, we may describe that as a 25kg/55lbs*80*1 set. The number of times an instructor conducts a class varies between 1 and about 20 per week, but most are doing around 5 - 7 classes.

    I've been thinking that as they get better at the Les Mills squats and bump the weight up, the sheer number of that type of squats during a week may be putting too much strain on their knees. Just a thought and I can't substantiate it. Views on this?
    That video is more than "a bit above parallel". Those are, at best, quarter squats.

    I have absolutely no knee issues when back squatting - none. Never. Part of that is form and part of that is intelligent planning.

    My knees hurt just watching that trainer and the girl demonstrate. For them, squats are a knee extension exercise and it shows. They may say it's a posterior chain exercise, but the way they squat speaks volumes.

    Watch Squat Rx #3 and #4. Not that they would convince anyone who already has their mind made up, but I think they are pretty well done.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  2. #27
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    I've had the lower extremity of my right femur completely shattered, my PCL ripped clean from the bone, and finally the leg literally sawed off and reconnected with steel plates to hold it all together. I squat fine, and suffer from no knee pain whatsoever.

  3. #28
    Senior Member CiteCollegiale's Avatar
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    Wow Kastro that's crazy stuff.

  4. #29
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiaran View Post
    Dude. If you don't want to do squats, then don't do them. I mean, what are you trying to say? You think all of a sudden the world is going to go "oh, welp, squatting is bad for your knees, so I guess we won't squat ever again." Come on. Living is bad for your body. Sooner or later, everything is going to break down and become damaged. If you believe your "facts" that you found, then great! Go do some quarter squats or whatever makes you feel good. What do you expect us to say here? The proof has been provided a million times over and over and it can be found in many of the Online Journals at this site.
    Kiaran, sorry you have missed the point of this thread, it is not about me, I do full squats and will continue to do so.

    The purpose of this thread is to gather squat info in a female friendly format. There some excellent instructional material out there such as sensi's video, I just need some material that justifies the views that we share on squatting.

  5. #30
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    That video is more than "a bit above parallel". Those are, at best, quarter squats.

    I have absolutely no knee issues when back squatting - none. Never. Part of that is form and part of that is intelligent planning.

    My knees hurt just watching that trainer and the girl demonstrate. For them, squats are a knee extension exercise and it shows. They may say it's a posterior chain exercise, but the way they squat speaks volumes.

    Watch Squat Rx #3 and #4. Not that they would convince anyone who already has their mind made up, but I think they are pretty well done.
    Yeh, the video doesn't even meet their own specifications...

  6. #31
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    But where are the facts that back up the full squat argument?
    Facts? Look at my sig. **** facts.

    How about the 85 year old guy that does full squats and has knee conditioning that would put the average 30 yo to shame? Or the 5 other 60+ masters I see train.

    Look at how a baby squats, look at the movement itself, it's so amazingly simple, the body just folds up andis so natural in that position.

    remember, you squat from the bottom up.

    I live and love squats, I love going to commercial gym and just blasting out deep sets after deep sets while people frown and mutter about knee injuries.

    If people were sooo concerned about their safety then why are people incapable of keeping tight backs when lifting a load, or why do people do so much chest work thet they are severely internally rotated to the point were they are risking a big inury. These same hunched over idiots are the ones using the hack squat machine.

    Screw a pubmed article, the movement of a deep squat makes sense to me, it feels natural, I am comfortable down there, I can sit there for a good hour no problem and watch TV.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  7. #32
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    Parallel squats just don't feel natural to me either I always go all the way down. My first time squatting I went all the way down and my partner asked what I was doing and said maybe I should lower the weight if it pushes me down that far hahah

  8. #33
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Facts? Look at my sig. **** facts.

    How about the 85 year old guy that does full squats and has knee conditioning that would put the average 30 yo to shame? Or the 5 other 60+ masters I see train.

    Look at how a baby squats, look at the movement itself, it's so amazingly simple, the body just folds up andis so natural in that position.

    remember, you squat from the bottom up.

    I live and love squats, I love going to commercial gym and just blasting out deep sets after deep sets while people frown and mutter about knee injuries.

    If people were sooo concerned about their safety then why are people incapable of keeping tight backs when lifting a load, or why do people do so much chest work thet they are severely internally rotated to the point were they are risking a big inury. These same hunched over idiots are the ones using the hack squat machine.

    Screw a pubmed article, the movement of a deep squat makes sense to me, it feels natural, I am comfortable down there, I can sit there for a good hour no problem and watch TV.
    Fuzzy, there ain't any links in your sig.

    Is there some doco on the 85 year old?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    Fuzzy, there ain't any links in your sig.

    Is there some doco on the 85 year old?
    I think he means "I don't need a medical paper to tell me whats right, seeing and talking to proffesional bodybuilders, powerlifters, Olympic lifters, strongmen and athletes and learning their methods will teach me more then a pubmed article ever will."

  10. #35
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    Kiaran, sorry you have missed the point of this thread, it is not about me, I do full squats and will continue to do so.

    The purpose of this thread is to gather squat info in a female friendly format. There some excellent instructional material out there such as sensi's video, I just need some material that justifies the views that we share on squatting.
    Mike,
    I used to have a list of references about the knees and squatting. I might have tossed or lost them since I don't really need them anymore, but I'll see what I have.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  11. #36
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    The only way to do squats is FULL squats. Any other method will hinder growth and potentially damage the knees.

    Many people are afraid of squats because they are sheep. They beleive what they are told. They are the people that elect our public officials.

    I know, it is very frightening that these people are the majority, but America is naive and are a rabid consumer driven society. But only for a limited future since our dollar is in decline and our economy is heading into deep recession unseen since the 1930s.
    Last edited by nick_escalantes; 02-09-2008 at 11:26 PM.

  12. #37
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Mike,
    I used to have a list of references about the knees and squatting. I might have tossed or lost them since I don't really need them anymore, but I'll see what I have.
    Excellent, thanks in advance.

  13. #38
    Strength & Protection Kiaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    Kiaran, sorry you have missed the point of this thread, it is not about me, I do full squats and will continue to do so.

    The purpose of this thread is to gather squat info in a female friendly format. There some excellent instructional material out there such as sensi's video, I just need some material that justifies the views that we share on squatting.
    lol, perhaps you are correct. I made a hasty glance at the thread and saw arguing over quarter squats and full squats. I should have just minded my own business. Good luck with your search.
    32 yo - 5'6" - 170 lbs
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  14. #39
    small flabby and hairy joelhall's Avatar
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    parallel breaking squats put the least pressure on the knees. its not the movement but the change from eccentric to concentric which places the most stress on the joint.

    im not sure where the debate comes from, but placing heavy loads time and time again on a joint during motion is going to stress it - thats why we lift in the first place. partial squats maintain stress during a weak point (half-way through the motion), and atf places a lot of stress at the beginning of the concentric motion. its a very weak position biomechanically, and should be avoided where possible.

    one other thing which doesnt help is foot placing. having a narrower stance is going to stress the sides of the joints far more. any wide stance is good on the knees, although it does place more stress on the back than the thighs.

    women are at a bit of an advntage and disadvantage at the same time however. naturally because of centre of gravity they have good upper leg and hip strength, but hips do work against them when squatting, depending on their ratios of course.

    but then i think most of them avoid it so they dont get a big arse

  15. #40
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Hey Joe, do you have any links to any supporting material on that stuff?

    Big arse....ha ha, they can't tell the difference between exercise and eating.

  16. #41
    small flabby and hairy joelhall's Avatar
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    got loads of written stuff i can dig out, (plus an a in biomechanics and anatomy and physiology:P).

    ill see what i can find on the net for you

  17. #42
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Courtesy of the late Mel Siff:
    For anyone who doubts the conditioning value and safety of the squat, read
    the following research studies which relate to the the use of the squat in
    knee rehabilitation:

    -----------------

    Med Sci Sports Exerc 2001 Jan;33(1):127-41

    Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise.

    Escamilla RF.

    PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete's or
    patient's success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing
    the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians,
    researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain
    exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this
    review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise.

    METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral
    compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed
    and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and
    rehabilitation.

    RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the
    posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for
    all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by
    the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60
    degrees knee flexion. Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral
    compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed and
    decreased as the knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee
    flexion. Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50
    degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation
    patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range.
    Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as
    knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees
    performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee
    flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee flexion. Furthermore, it was
    demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee.

    CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ
    during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with
    healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep
    squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral
    ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise
    knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally,
    the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature,
    because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity
    were produced during the squat.

    -------------

    Med Sci Sports Exerc 1989 Jun;21(3):299-303

    The effect of the squat exercise on knee stability.

    Chandler TJ, Wilson GD, Stone MH.

    Past studies have produced conflicting results as to the effect of squat
    exercises on knee stability. One hundred male and female college students
    were measured using a knee ligament arthrometer on nine tests of knee
    stability. Over an 8-wk training program, full or half squats did not
    consistently affect knee stability compared to non-squatting controls. To
    measure the effect of long-term squat training 27 male powerlifters (14 Elite
    or Master Class) and 28 male weightlifters (8 Elite or Master Class) were
    measured on the same tests.

    Powerlifters were significantly tighter than controls on the anterior drawer
    at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Both powerlifters and weightlifters were
    significantly tighter than controls on the quadriceps active drawer at 90
    degrees of knee flexion. Data on powerlifters and weightlifters were also
    analyzed by years of experience and skill level. No effect of squat training
    on knee stability was demonstrated in any of the groups tested.

    ------------------

    Med Sci Sports Exerc 1998 Apr;30(4):556-69

    Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open kinetic chain
    exercises.

    Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Zheng N, Barrentine SW, Wilk KE, Andrews JR.

    PURPOSE: Although closed (CKCE) and open (OKCE) kinetic chain exercises are
    used in athletic training and clinical environments, few studies have
    compared knee joint biomechanics while these exercises are performed
    dynamically. The purpose of this study was to quantify knee forces and muscle
    activity in CKCE (squat and leg press) and OKCE (knee extension).

    METHODS: Ten male subjects performed three repetitions of each exercise at
    their 12-repetition maximum. Kinematic, kinetic, and electromyographic data
    were calculated using video cameras (60 Hz), force transducers (960 Hz), and
    EMG (960 Hz). Mathematical muscle modeling and optimization techniques were
    employed to estimate internal muscle forces.

    RESULTS: Overall, the squat generated approximately twice as much hamstring
    activity as the leg press and knee extensions. Quadriceps muscle activity was
    greatest in CKCE when the knee was near full flexion and in OKCE when the
    knee was near full extension. OKCE produced more rectus femoris activity
    while CKCE produced more vasti muscle activity. Tibiofemoral compressive
    force was greatest in CKCE near full flexion and in OKCE near full
    extension. Peak tension in the posterior cruciate ligament was approximately
    twice as great in CKCE, and increased with knee flexion. Tension in the
    anterior cruciate ligament was present only in OKCE, and occurred near full
    extension. Patellofemoral compressive force was greatest in CKCE near full
    flexion and in the mid-range of the knee extending phase in OKCE.

    CONCLUSION: An understanding of these results can help in choosing
    appropriate exercises for rehabilitation and training.

    --------------

    Clin Biomech (Bristol, Avon) 2001 Jun;16(5):424-30

    Patellofemoral joint kinetics during squatting in collegiate women athletes.

    Salem GJ, Powers CM.

    OBJECTIVE:To characterize the biomechanics of the patellofemoral joint during
    squatting in collegiate women athletes.

    DESIGN: Repeated measures experimental design. BACKGROUND: Although squatting
    exercises are required components of most intercollegiate
    resistance-training programs and are commonly performed during
    rehabilitation, the effects of various squatting depths on patellofemoral
    joint stress have not been quantified.

    METHODS: Anthropometric data, three-dimensional knee kinematics, and ground
    reaction forces were used to calculate the knee extensor moment (inverse
    dynamics approach) in five intercollegiate female athletes during squatting
    exercise at three different depths (approximately 70 degrees, 90 degrees and
    110 degrees of knee flexion). A biomechanical model of the patellofemoral
    joint was used to quantify the patellofemoral joint reaction force and
    patellofemoral joint stress during each trial.

    RESULTS: Peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and
    patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three
    squatting trials.

    CONCLUSIONS: Squatting from 70 degrees to 110 degrees of knee flexion had
    little effect on patellofemoral joint kinetics. The relative constancy of
    the patellofemoral joint reaction force and joint stress appeared to be
    related to a consistent knee extensor moment produced across the three
    squatting depths.

    RELEVANCE: The results of this study do not support the premise that
    squatting to 110 degrees places greater stress on the patellofemoral joint
    than squatting to 70 degrees. These findings may have implications with
    respect to the safe design of athletic training regimens and rehabilitation
    programs.

    --------------

    J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 2002 Apr;32(4):141-

    Patellofemoral joint kinetics while squatting with and without an external
    load.

    Wallace DA, Salem GJ, Salinas R, Powers CM.

    STUDY DESIGN: Single-group repeated measures design. OBJECTIVE: To quantify
    patellofemoral joint reaction forces and stress while squatting with and
    without an external load.

    BACKGROUND: Although squatting exercises in the rehabilitation setting are
    often executed to a relatively shallow depth in order to avoid the higher
    joint forces associated with increased knee flexion, objective criteria for
    ranges of motion have not been established. Methods and Measures: Fifteen
    healthy adults performed single-repetition squats to 90 degrees of knee
    flexion without an external load and with an external load (35% of the
    subject's body weight [BW]). Anthropometric data, three-dimensional
    kinematics, and ground reaction forces were used to calculate knee extensor
    moments (inverse dynamics approach), while a biomechanical model of the
    patellofemoral joint was used to quantify the patellofemoral joint reaction
    forces and patellofemoral joint stress. Data were analyzed during the
    eccentric (0-90 degrees) and concentric (90-0 degrees phases of the squat
    maneuver.

    RESULTS: In both conditions, knee extensor moments, patellofemoral joint
    reaction forces, and patellofemoral joint stress increased significantly
    with greater knee flexion angles. Peak patellofemoral joint force and stress
    was observed at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Patellofemoral joint stress at 45
    degrees, 60 degrees, 75 degrees, and 90 degrees of knee flexion during the
    eccentric phase, and at 75 degrees and 90 degrees during the concentric
    phase, was significantly greater in the loaded trials versus the unloaded
    trials.

    CONCLUSION: The data indicate that during squatting, patellofemoral joint
    stress increases as the knee flexion angle increases, and that the addition
    of external resistance further increases patellofemoral joint stress. These
    findings suggest that in order to limit patellofemoral joint stress during
    squatting activities, clinicians should consider limiting terminal joint
    flexion angles and resistance loads.

    ---------------

    Dr Mel C Siff
    Denver, USA
    Last edited by Sensei; 02-10-2008 at 07:58 AM.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  18. #43
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    Fuzzy, there ain't any links in your sig.

    Is there some doco on the 85 year old?
    Noo...

    I TRAIN with and 85 year old master weightlifter. 80kg atg squat aint bad for someone his age and weighing 55kg. I'll see if John lets me take a vid next time.

    'I'm too old for all this bull**** Firas, I want to go back to a time when people squatted all the way up and down and did real pressing, none of this parallel buisness or laying on your back and pressing crap. I remember when there was none of this crap, we would get together, we would lift whatever was there, an axle, rock, back end of a car, or a weightlfting bar go home eat our steak and veggie and that was it.'
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  19. #44
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Excellent Sensi, I'll digest that and I should be on my way.

    Fuzzy, would love to see a video of the John, if he lets you.

  20. #45
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    Hey Fuzzy, did you approach John about some photo's or a video?

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