I still have a problem looking at this from a big picture perspective. I could care less about the studies, really. If there was a product, or combination of products that was 50% (even 25%) as effective as steroids, wouldn't every single athlete in the entire world be using it? I'm going to agree with a few others, I would be open to trying a sugar free product to see if it produced strength gains. If it did, I would retract my original conclusion and probably use the product.
My brother and I were brutal. I once chased him around the house with a spoon that I put on the burner. I burned that little pricks leg. -sharkall2003
Then I saw a little african boy sleeping, and I thought...that is little Okeke. he is tired from herding all the goats and the big goat got away today - Rock
I would definitely buy a dextrose-free version for when I run UD2 in a few weeks as well. I know it's not gonna happen, or at least that soon, but just wanted to chime in. I honestly think there would be a decent demand for a sugar free version.
Last edited by Invain; 03-31-2008 at 09:48 PM.
See that's just it. As Chris said, it only adds a little bit to the effectiveness of the product. Since so many of us can't tolerate that much sugar, I can't see why AtLarge doesn't go ahead and formulate a sugar-free version.
The goal is to deplete glycogen to the largest degree possible.
Anything that aids in the production of ATP and delays anaerobic glyoclysis and the formation of lactate, would not be of benefit.
This is why creatine is not to be used until after the Thursday tension workout. Beta-alanine would fall into this category as well.
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 03-31-2008 at 10:33 PM.
Hmm damn. I haven't read the book in a while, lol.
Last edited by Invain; 03-31-2008 at 11:11 PM.
would taking caffeine along with results be of benefit? Or would it counteract the creatine?
Reach down between your legs and find a pair of balls. That's what it takes to lift big weights. Genetics is the weak man's excuse for why he sucks at life. Don't be that guy - RhodeHouse
Any man under 200lbs is a woman - RhodeHouse
Preworkout carbs may not provide a boost defined in terms of "your bench will immediately go up", but they DO let you keep your training intensity going a little longer because they spare muscle glycogen. See, glucose is the food on your table - glycogen is the food in your fridge. Glucose is the stuff your muscles use, not glycogen, not directly. Glycogen has to break down first. Glucose does not.
Perhaps this semantic is behind some of the confusion in this thread.
The other benefit that comes from pre-workout carbs has, of course, been well documented: Given the choice of "before vs after", it is flat out more effective for the post-workout repair period to have the carbohydrate already in your system when the last weight hits the floor, than it is to knock back a shake when you're all done. That's why Berardi, Tate and others suggest sipping a shake before and or during your workout.
Given this, the dextrose in Results! is no different than any other dextrose: when consumed shortly before a workout, the insulin and glucose ensure the right thing at the right time to aid in repair and recovery after a workout, thus making it a clearly ergogenic aid in this light.
Now, nobody has said this is a bad thing! I personally have not suggested that it is the ONLY substance that is having an ergogenic effect. But to deny this effect is rather ludicrous if you consider that the dextrose consumed pre-workout on its own will do this.
Now, the dextrose consumed many hours before, or the day before, won't have this effect because it and its ensuing insulin response will have dissipated before the post workout window - although I suppose it may still contribute to glycogen stores. But that's not what we've been talking about (although 300 calories IS still 300 calories!)
Thing is, the other actives - creatine and HMB - neither of these improves your bench right away either. Does this mean they aren't ergogenic aids either? Because if this is the only reason you say this, by extension, shooting a gram of test into your ass every week isn't an ergogenic aid either: after all, it doesn't work right away.
I think this is possibly the all-time best response on WBB. - Jorge Sanchez
"you're an animal eat like one damn it!" - Wikked1
"Now we're finally getting to the chicken or the egg question," I grinned. "Did I eat all that food because my size gives me more of an appetite, or did I get to be this big because I've been forcing myself to eat like this for years?"
From A Body Builder is Born
i knew you were a beast but not that kinda of a beast that eats grown men and children.. lilmase
Built, for you to come to conclusion you have about carbs in a pre-workout situation is not very scientific at all (relative to your application of your conclusion). You are not considering the real life variables that exist in the vast majority of trainees.
The majority of those who are resistance trained are not in any sort of a caloric deficit. They are not carb starved nor do they have low intramuscular glycogen stores. They have probably also consumed a meal which contains a fair amount of fat within the last several hours of training meaning that their blood glucose levels are very likely reasonably high (they are still digesting said meal). Thus pre-workout carbs will not do anything for their training.
That is the reality. What you and a few others are focusing on are nuance circumstances that simply don't exist for most. That is what I have been trying to get through to you guys all along.
The ingredients in RESULTS that have an anabolic effect are creatine, HMB, and beta alanine. The combination of all 3 provides significantly greater benefits than any one of them alone will provide.
For what seems like the millionth time, all you need do is simply try the product and judge its efficacy for yourself. Chances are quite excellent you will come to the same conclusion of the vast majority of those who have tried it and decide it is one of the best ergogenic supplements on the market.
Energy Stores in Humans.
The surprising part of this business is that we have a very limited amount of circulating glucose in spite of a very rapid and extensive use of this sugar as anenergy source. Look at the table below. The highlighted area shows how long our blood and extracellular glucose can support differing activity levels.
Our total reserve of blood glucose is around 20 grams. Twenty grams of glucose give enough energy for about 40 minutes with little or no activity! If you just sit and relax you could use all of your glucose in less than one hour! If you walk, glucose could disappear in around 15 minutes and moderate work (that which can be maintained for some few hours) might exhaust your sugar reserves in about 4 minutes.
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 04-01-2008 at 10:36 PM.
Chris, I'm sorry you just don't get it. It's sad to think you've been missing out on the ergogenic benefit of before and during-workout glucose, but at least now that you're using Results, you're getting this advantage.
Even though you don't realize it.
Cutting fat requires a caloric deficit.
Additonally, one could bulk but maintain relatively low muscle glycogen.
For example, setting up a UD2 gain diet (for myself) comes out to 250g carbs, 400g protein, and 100+ grams of fat.
My muscles max out around 1800 grams of glycogen (carbs)
So, if I take this 250g/day, 100 grams goes to the liver.
That leaves my muscles with 150 grams.
This is 1650 grams carb/glycogen below what I am capable of storing, which would be considered low.
This does not take into account that musle glycogen is not only utilized during resistance training, strength training, endurance training, or whatever kind of training.
Even if one does not exercise, muscle glycogen does not stay there forever.
This really is basic biology with regards to cellular respiration.
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 04-01-2008 at 10:40 PM.
I know I'm not.
The focus as of late really seems to be on the carbohydrate/glycogen issue.
Built's comments above actually are scientific because this is basic biochemsistry that just about every medically-related undergraduate learns and has been established for years and it does apply real-world as she, I, or anyone else has discussed.
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 04-01-2008 at 11:08 PM.
As well as any other article, study, book, or piece of literature that states muscle and liver glycogen storage capacity.
As well as all my experience carb loading and fine-tuning, calculating, and tracking dietary manipulations.
Are all of these wrong?
Even if my numbers were off (which they aren't...besides, everything related to "calories" is estimation....even when they calculate the calories in a given food), 250g/day hardly means my muscle glycogen is high. And taking into consideration my weight, it would mean that is a very low amount.
Am I missing something?
Does the liver and muscles change how much they store on a particular day?
What variables change liver and muscle storage capacity?
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 04-01-2008 at 11:58 PM.
Take a holiday from Results! with sugar, then next time you try it, do everything the same as you are now but with 80g less carb than you're currently consuming - ie with a sugar-free version.
Many of us would have been far more interested in this than in the one with half a cup of sugar in a single dose.
By the way, Chris - you used this in a caloric deficit didn't you? While you were dropping 20 lbs of fat in a month?
Last edited by Built; 04-02-2008 at 12:05 AM.