The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #101
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    This is bizzare! I disagree with alot of what I said in in hindsight. Funny how things change!

    It was a damn good thread.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  2. #102
    Senior Member endymion88's Avatar
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    this was an awesome read.

  3. #103
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    Fuzzy, what thoughts have changed?

  4. #104
    Wannabebig Member C-Sobrino's Avatar
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    I just read through this thread. Seriously, people have to stop saying x or y olympic weightlifter squatted ass to grass 900 pounds. The Russians already admitted they lied about their squat numbers! Same with a bunch of other countries who would say so and so squats xyz! Some of the strongest people I know are olympic weightlifters, it is a strength sport and an awesome one, but I find incredible how so many people want to insist that a strength athlete who uses a squat as an accesory / supplemental lift will be better at it than a guy for whom the squat is his bread and butter lift.
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "For me the most important thing is to beat myself, to lift the barbell that up to this point I have not yet lifted." - Alexeyev

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    This is bizzare! I disagree with alot of what I said in in hindsight. Funny how things change!

    It was a damn good thread.
    Whats your squat now?using the same form as before.

  6. #106
    IRL my name is Trent Hazerboy's Avatar
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    Great thread. Something more to add though -- there are power lifters that use a high volume/high frequency approach. Like anything else you just have to wave intensity. Here's a piece from an interview with Pavel, "The Russian Speaks-"

    "T: Every time I read your stuff you shock me with something. Letís hear one of your ideas about training that would shock T-mag readers.

    Pavel: There is a belief that you have no business coming back to the gym until you can better yourself. You must have complete recovery, they say. This is totally ridiculous. This is called distributed loading and itís something thatís fine for beginners, perhaps for intermediate athletes, but not for advanced athletes. The alternative is concentrated loading. You build up the fatigue then you back off and taper.

    For example, the Russian national powerlifting team is benching up to eight times a week
    . Obviously, they do not completely recover, but they build up the volume and the fatigue, then have some unloading workouts, high volume, low volume, high intensity, low intensity, then medium etc. There is such a thing as continuity in your training. As long as you keep stimulating the nervous system with the stimulus, even if your body is not totally recovered, youíre going to make much better gains. Once in a while go easy, once in a while go hardÖ this is where instinctive training comes in.

    Some pseudo-scientific authorities make fun of bodybuilders who train instinctively. But sometimes it really does make sense. Today you may be able to do five sets of five in the bench. Tomorrow you can come back and do three triples with the same weight. Youíre not totally recovered, but youíre greasing the same groove in the nervous system. Then maybe you can bench again the third day, really beat it up, and then take two days off. Thatís something to consider."
    http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._speaks_part_2

    Like someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

    I remember reading in either another Pavel interview or in Dinosaur training about a 500 lb raw bencher from the 70s/80s who put a bench and rack in his kitchen, and would knock out reps throughout the day/week. Now thats greasing the groove.
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  7. #107
    THE 800 QUEST NickAus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazerboy View Post
    Great thread. Something more to add though -- there are power lifters that use a high volume/high frequency approach. Like anything else you just have to wave intensity. Here's a piece from an interview with Pavel, "The Russian Speaks-"

    "T: Every time I read your stuff you shock me with something. Letís hear one of your ideas about training that would shock T-mag readers.

    Pavel: There is a belief that you have no business coming back to the gym until you can better yourself. You must have complete recovery, they say. This is totally ridiculous. This is called distributed loading and itís something thatís fine for beginners, perhaps for intermediate athletes, but not for advanced athletes. The alternative is concentrated loading. You build up the fatigue then you back off and taper.

    For example, the Russian national powerlifting team is benching up to eight times a week
    . Obviously, they do not completely recover, but they build up the volume and the fatigue, then have some unloading workouts, high volume, low volume, high intensity, low intensity, then medium etc. There is such a thing as continuity in your training. As long as you keep stimulating the nervous system with the stimulus, even if your body is not totally recovered, youíre going to make much better gains. Once in a while go easy, once in a while go hardÖ this is where instinctive training comes in.

    Some pseudo-scientific authorities make fun of bodybuilders who train instinctively. But sometimes it really does make sense. Today you may be able to do five sets of five in the bench. Tomorrow you can come back and do three triples with the same weight. Youíre not totally recovered, but youíre greasing the same groove in the nervous system. Then maybe you can bench again the third day, really beat it up, and then take two days off. Thatís something to consider."
    http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._speaks_part_2

    Like someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

    I remember reading in either another Pavel interview or in Dinosaur training about a 500 lb raw bencher from the 70s/80s who put a bench and rack in his kitchen, and would knock out reps throughout the day/week. Now thats greasing the groove.
    Interesting!

    I did this with chins a while back and it worked really well.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    You guys finally figured it out. If you only knew how stupid you sounded with the 3-5 layers blah, blah, blah. But, it makes for good reading for me.

    As for the Olympics, who gives a $hit? I lift for myself. If you're out there lifting for trophies or the Olympics as a PLer, you're in the wrong game.

    You raw dogs like to call out geared lifters. Raw lifting isn't as hard as using the gear. You have to be smarter, but it's definately easier. I do a ton of raw training. Since the gear is getting ridiculous, there are 2 options.

    1. complain about it, like a few of you like to do
    2. accept that it's here to stay and LEARN to use it.

    Training in gear is not as easy as putting on a suit and squatting. You're asking your body to handle more weight than it is capable of handling (supra-maximal loads). The strain on the CNS is ridiculous. Not to mention the joints that aren't protected by the gear. And, the skill (like throwing a football correctly or hitting a golf ball) practice it takes to learn where to put your body while using the gear. All you do when lifting raw is lift.

    I put a squat suit and a bottle of test on the floor under the monolift 1 day and loaded the bar to 500lbs. Oddly enough, the suit was unable to lift the weight. In fact, it wasn't even able to unrack the weight. Which really freaked me out, because I thought the suit did all the lifting for me. Imagine my ride home from the gym that day? Talk about worlds colliding. I had spent so much time thinking the suit was doing all of the work for me, and to find out I was wrong! After a long night of Jack and Cokes and a few percocets, I came to the conclusion thatGod himself, was lifting the weights for me. It wasn't the suit and it wasn't me. It was divine intervention. Praise Jesus!
    I've been sitting back watching this thread. I do have to say that the post above is some seriousy funny ****, especially the last paragraph. What makes it so funny is its true.
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  9. #109
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    I have done a lot of different types of training and this is what I found

    Westside/Low Frequency

    -Consistent Progress
    -Allows for more recovery
    -Very easy to both overtrain AND undertrain
    -Rarely get overuse injuries
    -Less flexibility (at least in my case)
    -More conducive to hypertrophy
    -More conducive to longevity

    Sheiko/Smolov/High Frequency

    -Form becomes very good
    -Better flexibility of hips and shoulders
    -Overuse injuries common
    -Gains come in spurts
    -If programmed wrong, athlete becomes overtrained very easily
    -Better suited for novices and oly lifters
    -Very Conducive to peaking

  10. #110
    Wannabebig Member C-Sobrino's Avatar
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    Travis and others who know...

    If you count the 4 basic workouts, plus the extra workouts for weaknesses plus the gpp workouts, dont Westside guys train 14 times a week? I mean I never thought of westside as low frequency...
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "For me the most important thing is to beat myself, to lift the barbell that up to this point I have not yet lifted." - Alexeyev

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Sobrino View Post
    Travis and others who know...

    If you count the 4 basic workouts, plus the extra workouts for weaknesses plus the gpp workouts, dont Westside guys train 14 times a week? I mean I never thought of westside as low frequency...
    What I meant was that the lifts themselves are performed at a low frequency... WS only squats 1-2 times per week, compared to 3-10 of other systems.

  12. #112
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    Fuzzy, what thoughts have changed?
    Mostly I realised high frequency has to be waved alot. Sometimes I squat everyday, but with the weights I am moving now the fatigue becomes unbearable after a month or so. I still like the high frequency approach, but a year ago I disregarded my relative weakness and the teenage body's amazing recovery abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darracq View Post
    Whats your squat now?using the same form as before.
    If I was to walk out to my stuff right now I could put up 470-490. I peaked last October with 533, but that was when my wrist was injured and we did some intensive leg strengthening stuff. Now we've backed off to favour the actual lifts, which are still far too low.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  13. #113
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Pavel sites a not so great example as the Russian benchers are not as good as ours. If the system were superior it would produce generally superior athletes.


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  14. #114
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    When comparing russia to the US, you must compare apples to apples, their system surely has produced more IPF world champions than any other.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrias View Post
    I have done a lot of different types of training and this is what I found

    Sheiko/Smolov/High Frequency

    -Form becomes very good
    Yeah hitting all those reps in the powerlifts reinforces form for sure

    -Better flexibility of hips and shoulders

    -Overuse injuries common
    Definately agree, GPP important to prevent

    -Gains come in spurts
    Dont agree with this, i think you can become consistently stronger with Sheiko

    -If programmed wrong, athlete becomes overtrained very easily
    Programming is key and way more complicated than with WSB as there is no deloading as such and no going by feel

    -Better suited for novices and oly lifters
    Most disagree with this. Different cycles and programming are available for different 'classes of lifter' i.e. ability...just most people dont know about them...cycles for freaks like Belayev and Fedosienko are very different to ones for 'normal' lifters

    -Very Conducive to peaking
    As a total Sheiko nuthugger I agree with some of your points above, also agre with Ivan92 - the russian system of training has undoubtedly produced more IPF champs and records than any other but relatively few multiply guys or famous raw lifters cos the RPF/IPF is the biggest show in town (and only until quite recently IIRC).

  16. #116
    Wannabebig Member C-Sobrino's Avatar
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    I dispute the sheiko program producing more champs for the IPF than other methods. Russian champs consistently fail IPF doping tests while American lifters do not. I know using steroids is a personal thing, blah blah blah, but, in the IPF the rules state you can't. Americans consistently pass the tests, Russians consistently do not. Same goes with benching. Other countries consistently are found cheating as to gear requirements, American lifters consistently do no have problems using the designated gear.
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "For me the most important thing is to beat myself, to lift the barbell that up to this point I have not yet lifted." - Alexeyev

  17. #117
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    You are not attributing Russia's staggering success in the IPF only to PEDs are you? For every champion that fails a test, there are ten more that did not. They swept the worlds last year under strict testing and equipment standards. India did a very good job hosting.

  18. #118
    Wannabebig Member C-Sobrino's Avatar
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    Ok, sorry if my comments caused any confusion or misunderstanding. I want to be perfectly clear so nothing is taken out of context.

    Yes. When comparing the success of Russian and Eastern European lifters and their systems to the American Lifters, in the context of the IPF, YES their success is very much due to their consistent disregard for the antidoping rules in the IPF.

    Facts:
    1-Russian IPF Champions have been consistently found to be on the juice when tested.
    2-American IPF Champions have been consistently found to not be on the juice when tested.

    Conclusion:
    Since American lifters tend to become IPF champions without a consistent failing of doping tests, their systems are better, since even if they do cheat and juice, their use is not as constant as Russian or Eastern European usage. DONE.
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "For me the most important thing is to beat myself, to lift the barbell that up to this point I have not yet lifted." - Alexeyev

  19. #119
    Senior Member SELK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Sobrino View Post
    I dispute the sheiko program producing more champs for the IPF than other methods. Russian champs consistently fail IPF doping tests while American lifters do not. I know using steroids is a personal thing, blah blah blah, but, in the IPF the rules state you can't. Americans consistently pass the tests, Russians consistently do not. Same goes with benching. Other countries consistently are found cheating as to gear requirements, American lifters consistently do no have problems using the designated gear.
    Its because around here, if you want to take drugs and use gangster gear, there are federations which would love to have you.
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  20. #120
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    I don't know that I would classify it as east vs. west, there are some current American IPF champions that use Sheiko principles and have done quite well for themselves, i.e., Siders, Tuchscherer, Hooper.

  21. #121
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    I know this topic has sparked side debates from the begining. I think the important thing to take from this is finding what method works best for you at the point you are in your lifting career. Disputes over gear and federations are inevitable, but it comes down to what works best for what you are trying to accomplish.

  22. #122
    Senior Member ACaslow's Avatar
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    great thread
    Last edited by ACaslow; 12-04-2009 at 09:16 PM.
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  23. #123
    IRL my name is Trent Hazerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACaslow View Post
    ummmm, only 1-2 times per week? this is opinion based right and not proven?

    If it's proven, then why the hell am I making gains squatting 3-4 times a week at times?

    junk thread, way too much know it all babble bs.
    I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Powerlifting has 3 very different lifts, instead of 2 very very similar lifts (like oly lifting). therefore your training has to be split up a lot more so you can get stronger in the various lifts -- most guy simply don't have a lot of time to hit their lifts more than 1-2X a week. He wasn't saying that you PHYSICALLY CANNOT squat that often or something, only that your time has to be divided between the 3, which is even harder because they are all so different -- there's some crossover between squat/deadlift training, but after awhile the two diverge for most people.

  24. #124
    Senior Member ACaslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazerboy View Post
    I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Powerlifting has 3 very different lifts, instead of 2 very very similar lifts (like oly lifting). therefore your training has to be split up a lot more so you can get stronger in the various lifts -- most guy simply don't have a lot of time to hit their lifts more than 1-2X a week. He wasn't saying that you PHYSICALLY CANNOT squat that often or something, only that your time has to be divided between the 3, which is even harder because they are all so different -- there's some crossover between squat/deadlift training, but after awhile the two diverge for most people.
    Either way. I don't like how my post came across. I'd rather not even bother.
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  25. #125
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACaslow View Post
    Either way. I don't like how my post came across. I'd rather not even bother.
    Thanks for participating anyway. I had alot of fun with this thread a while back.

    Amazing what another 60 pounds of strength teaches you.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

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