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Thread: More ideas on westside vs HFT for raw lifters.

  1. #1
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    More ideas on westside vs HFT for raw lifters.

    QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE.

    Is westside good for raw lifting or should raw lifters incorporate more frequency in their training? I mean, lets look at the ultimate RRAAWRZZ!!11! Oly lifters, we seem to defy every convention from squatting with huge knee travel to squatting heavy twice a day 6 times a week. So, if Oly lifters can condition themselves to this kind of frequency then why would it not be beneficial for raw lifters to do the same?

    Think on it...

    Obviously westside is geared to geared lifters. These nutters are in 2-3 plys putting insanely huge weights that I could not even comprehend moving on their backs. Having this much weight on you, regardless of gear imo is alot more taxing then full range raw stuff. It is alot more traumatic on the body for geared powerlifters than raw lifters and as such require more recovery time.

    This is why the westside template is brilliant.

    Even though I am ****ed after Oly training with full atg squats the hardest squat of my life was 528 in IPF gear, unracking that weight was terrifying alone and the impact on my body was much larger then any heavy raw work. That is 1 ply with a 115ish gain. Could you imagine putting over 300+ of your raw on your back.... **** geared lifters are insane.

    SO westside with this in mind is geared for 2 maximal days, so maybe it isnt the best most effiecient system for the raw lifter ( I am talking training days and split) were as higher frequncy programs are better wich seems to be the trend with Oly lifters, raw lifters, and some IPF guys. Without this super high loading raw lifters can up the frequency.

    With the right conditioning build up and cycle, programs like the Sheiko and Smolov are much more efficient for raw lifters because raw lifting imo is easier to recover from then puttign such insane weights on your body.

    Thoughts?
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

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    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Personally I disagree completly. When training raw on WS, you just need to listen to your body and know when to deload. Most people tend to skip over that part of a Max Effort training routine. Also they make their speed days too heavy which is a huge mistake.

    Now granted I'm not a full meet lifter, but I still train all three lifts on a WS schedule. Works just great for me and I've been doing strict WS for probably 3 years now

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    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    I am surpised more have not commented on this. I am not a powerlifter, but love checking out what you guys are discussing over here. Fuzzy makes some interesting points, aren't there more people who have opinions on this?


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    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Personally I disagree completly. When training raw on WS, you just need to listen to your body and know when to deload. Most people tend to skip over that part of a Max Effort training routine. Also they make their speed days too heavy which is a huge mistake.

    Now granted I'm not a full meet lifter, but I still train all three lifts on a WS schedule. Works just great for me and I've been doing strict WS for probably 3 years now
    Point taken but I was merely voicing observations. Just look at Olympic lifters, we put our body through full ranges at maximal weights daily and witht he right program and diet, plus good resting and massage this is completely doable for alot of people.

    The overall hidden point I was trying to make is that the human body can handle so much more than we think. Deloading is irrespective of this, EVERYONE should deload once in a while

    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    I am surpised more have not commented on this. I am not a powerlifter, but love checking out what you guys are discussing over here. Fuzzy makes some interesting points, aren't there more people who have opinions on this?
    Well, I was just thinking about it, so many raw powerlifters have huge success with the Smolov squat cycle, Sheiko or Coan bench routine and the Coan Philipi deadlift cycles, all have alot of frequency, albeit not at the same time.

    And once again, looking at how Oly lifters train year round it makes sense. You could not do a high frequency regime in 3 plys simply because... well ****, thats alot of weight suited or not.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

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    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    OL and PL, at least at elite levels, are apples and oranges. Not to say that PL doesn't require tremendous skill/technique, but I think most would agree that there is a world of difference between the two when it comes to the technique issue.

    Some PLers can tolerate higher frequency, but generally, advanced PLers (and especially heavier guys) are not going to do well with it.

    Sheiko I've never tried, so I can't personally comment on it, but many I know who've tried it had numbers drop. I'm sure there are advanced PLers who can keep up w. Smolov, but I can't see anyone advanced thriving on that unless they are taking plenty of "supplements" and even then, I don't know why anyone would choose that.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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    Team Stocky Member. Killa Kurt's Avatar
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    I don't believe in over-training anymore. I think it's your mind telling you that it is bored, OR it's a lack of rest/nutrition. I feel like I could train all day long as long as I get enough rest and stuff my face........
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    Westside is not geared toward geared lifters. If you look at the stuff from 10-15 years ago, the gear didn't give you much. Westside has evolved over the years. The template that you are familiar with is perfect for the raw lifter. Follow the template - it works.

    Raw lifting is tougher on the joints that aren't protected by the gear. (hips, groin, shoulders) It may not be as taxing on the CNS as geared lifting, but it's still very tough on the body.

    Don't re-invent the wheel.

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    IRL my name is Trent Hazerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE.

    Obviously westside is geared to geared lifters. These nutters are in 2-3 plys putting insanely huge weights that I could not even comprehend moving on their backs. Having this much weight on you, regardless of gear imo is alot more taxing then full range raw stuff. It is alot more traumatic on the body for geared powerlifters than raw lifters and as such require more recovery time.
    I was under the impression that westside was based on some Russia research taken in the 70s/80s. While I haven't looked at the research specifically, I'm pretty sure gear either wasn't around at that time, or wasn't used in the east. My point being is that I don't think Westside is so "obvoiusly" meant for geared lifters.

    Joe Defranco, for instance, uses a variation of westside for his high school and collegiate athletes.

    As far as whether or not geared lifting is "more taxing" than full range raw stuff, I think this would very for the lifter. How "taxing" a lift is, at least from what I know, depends on how quickly one can heal from one workout to another. This seems like something that would depend on the lifter.

    Also, don't forget the supposed "protective" aspect of gear, i.e. the idea that gear helps prevent injuries ("No one rips a pec in a bench shirt!). Wouldn't this aspect, at least in appearance, make it seem as if gear is less taxing then raw lifting?

    I'm with Sensei on this one. Oly and powerlifting are apples and oranges.
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    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    The comparison is somewhat invalid.

    The powerlifts are an expression of the body's ability to move a given load through space with a minimum of technique and a maximum of brute strength. The term slow strength is sometimes used. An absolute maximum back squat to parallel requires a very different expression of muscular strength than a maximum squat clean and press.

    The difference in the goals of the respective sports requires a difference in training. Olympic lifting has a much higher skill component and therefore requires much greater frequency of practice of the movements. This frequency is only possible with lower percentage loads.


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    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Point taken but I was merely voicing observations.

    No, its a good question, I wasn't meaning to put it out there like you asked a stupid question, many people want to add more volume and frequency into their lifts.

    Unfortunatly overtraining isn't a myth or mind game. I watched a 425lb raw bencher (600lb geared) go down to barely benching 315lbs raw (wouldn't even touch a shirt) in a matter of two months because he pushed himself waaay to hard doing too much stuff - one of the things he'd done was get on a sheiko routine but it was for OHP. Now, us young bucks can push ourselves alot further because we have a much bigger fudge factor so if we blow it our bodies will make up for our mistakes alot quicker. The older the body gets though, the more it'll expect you to not make those mistakes because you should have it figured out by now hahaha.

    I can definatly sympathize with the feeling that I could train all day though. I love training, especially bench days and hate to see them come to an end, but sometimes I have to force myself to start thinking about the next workout, always be thinking about the next step

  11. #11
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

    The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
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    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killa Kurt View Post
    I don't believe in over-training anymore. I think it's your mind telling you that it is bored, OR it's a lack of rest/nutrition. I feel like I could train all day long as long as I get enough rest and stuff my face........
    Yeah, I train with soe absoloute animals who dont even know the concept, they have been lifting for years in sheds and local garages and have deveoped to the point were they lift heavy everyday.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Westside is not geared toward geared lifters. If you look at the stuff from 10-15 years ago, the gear didn't give you much. Westside has evolved over the years. The template that you are familiar with is perfect for the raw lifter. Follow the template - it works.

    Raw lifting is tougher on the joints that aren't protected by the gear. (hips, groin, shoulders) It may not be as taxing on the CNS as geared lifting, but it's still very tough on the body.

    Don't re-invent the wheel.
    Couldn't wait for your reply!

    I was not saying the template doesnt work, ofcourse it works, I am saying that if Olympic lifters can condition themselves to very effective higher frequency then why cant raw lifters?

    I am just putting the idea out there, sure Oly lifting and powerlifting are different but when talking about raw lifting then Oly and raw do have alot more parallels.

    I hope I am not comeing off as insolent, I have said again and again that unlike most teens i do what the guys bigger and stronger then me tell me to do. Once again, just putting out an idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazerboy View Post
    I was under the impression that westside was based on some Russia research taken in the 70s/80s. While I haven't looked at the research specifically, I'm pretty sure gear either wasn't around at that time, or wasn't used in the east. My point being is that I don't think Westside is so "obvoiusly" meant for geared lifters.
    True, but maximal loads twice a week and then DE loads twice a week seems much more friedly to a multi ply lifter and the rests are much more needed than a raw lifter. People can adapt, i have seen it alot.

    Joe Defranco, for instance, uses a variation of westside for his high school and collegiate athletes.

    yes, but how much other training does an athlete have?

    As far as whether or not geared lifting is "more taxing" than full range raw stuff, I think this would very for the lifter. How "taxing" a lift is, at least from what I know, depends on how quickly one can heal from one workout to another. This seems like something that would depend on the lifter.
    Sure it is dependable on the lifter but I see too many less than genetically blessed lifters work up over 6-12 months to soe serious frequency. that is they key, WORKING UP TO IT.

    Also, don't forget the supposed "protective" aspect of gear, i.e. the idea that gear helps prevent injuries ("No one rips a pec in a bench shirt!). Wouldn't this aspect, at least in appearance, make it seem as if gear is less taxing then raw lifting?
    To a point, I never lifted in multiplys but geared powerlifting was alot harder then any Oly lifting I have done. I have Olympic squatted with no belt or wraps 462 pounds, that felt nothing like 528 in a single ply. In lys you are dealing with loads beyond your body's capacity, it is some crazy ****, i cant even fathom 2+ ply lifting.

    I'm with Sensei on this one. Oly and powerlifting are apples and oranges.
    Lifting raw is lifting raw, sure there are different styles but the point remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

    The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
    Bingo.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  13. #13
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

    The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
    There need not be a dramatic difference in training volume or intensity with geared vs. raw lifting.

    There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Westside works and works very well. You can get strong training other ways as well, of that there is no doubt.


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  14. #14
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

    The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
    You are grossly overstating this. While it's true the majority do not use WS, that is true of the general PL population. There are plenty of USAPL and IPF lifters that use WS.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Fuzzy you're oversimplifying the issue a little bit. Lifting isn't lifting. I wish Travis Mash were on this board because he could really shed some light on the issue. But if you ever read his log you'll see that he trains completly differently when he's training for Oly lifting vs. powerlifting.

    Yes, if you try and condition your body to lifting heavy every session, it might eventually work, but its just not going to work as well as something like WS will work. DE day isn't just about having a light day so you don't overtrain, its also about teaching your muscles to move weight quickly. Developing explosive strength. You can't teach your muscles to move weight quickly if its heavy

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    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    I benched 600 unequipped in competition using a WS template. I believe Rhodes is doing an article on it.

  17. #17
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    I benched 600 unequipped in competition using a WS template. I believe Rhodes is doing an article on it.
    How the hell is Rhodes gonna write with one eye?

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  18. #18
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubrock View Post
    How the hell is Rhodes gonna write with one eye?
    With his hands
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    Bench - 374lbs -- 170kg -- Dec 20, '08 (@100kg class)
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    Total: 1537lbs -- 697.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)
    Bench Only -- 358lbs -- 162.5kg -- Nov. 25, '07 (Provincial Record @ 90kg class)
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    The difference between olympic lifting and powerlifting is huge. None of you has bothered to look at the VAST differences between multi-ply and single-ply powerlifting or even single-ply and raw powerlifting.

    The successful IPF lifters do not follow westside templates. They follow high-volume, high frequency routines. Many of the top Canadian IPF lifters follow 5 or 6 day a week programs.
    This is because the people in the IPF assume that people who train using the westside template, are all loud-mouthed-shaved head-covered in tattoos-cranked to the gills-cheaters. If they gave the template a chance, they would get pretty f'n strong.

    This is one of the many reasons the IPF is in their own little world
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Westside works and works very well. You can get strong training other ways as well, of that there is no doubt.
    Exactly. If you train using a particular method, and you do so very very diligently and intensely, then you should get strong. If you're not getting strong, then you're doing something incorrectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    You are grossly overstating this. While it's true the majority do not use WS, that is true of the general PL population. There are plenty of USAPL and IPF lifters that use WS.
    Yep, I know quite a few actually. It's usually the people who have never tried the westside template who assume that nobody uses it.

  20. #20
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Fuzzy you're oversimplifying the issue a little bit. Lifting isn't lifting. I wish Travis Mash were on this board because he could really shed some light on the issue. But if you ever read his log you'll see that he trains completly differently when he's training for Oly lifting vs. powerlifting.

    Yes, if you try and condition your body to lifting heavy every session, it might eventually work, but its just not going to work as well as something like WS will work. DE day isn't just about having a light day so you don't overtrain, its also about teaching your muscles to move weight quickly. Developing explosive strength. You can't teach your muscles to move weight quickly if its heavy
    You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

    The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  21. #21
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

    The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.



    Fuzzy, what is your 1RM max squat Olympic style?

    What are your loads for working sets and how many of such sets do you perform and how often?

    Chris


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    The one thing that gets missed alot with Westside is the over-complication of it. People think it's chains and bands, 8x3 etc... Westside is really only 3 things:

    1. Dynamic Effort Method
    2. Maximum Effort Method
    3. Repetitive Effort Method

    That's all it is. It uses the 3 ways of building strength. It's no more complicated than that.

    As for the comment about single v. double ply gear - it all the same. Single ply gear is so jacked up nowadays. The only difference is the single ply stuff stretches out faster.

  23. #23
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Fuzzy, what is your 1RM max squat Olympic style?

    What are your loads for working sets and how many of such sets do you perform and how often?

    Chris
    462 atg Olympic squat.

    Loads for working set are anywhere from 375 to 440, usually from 3-5 reps. I squat with these kinda of loads daily.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    You are not getting my point... how many times do i have to point to olympic lifters to make it clear what I am trying to convey, we lift at insane peeds as well as alot of heavy work, and we do it often. And seeing how we can adapt to such loading then why is so hard to beleive that higher frequncy will work to.

    The human body can adapt, i know it goes against all the mainstram beliefs but you would not bleive how much the human body can handle unassisted.
    I don't think anyone is not getting your point Fuzzy, but you seem to be missing ours.

    For OLers, squatting is GPP for your skill/sport. For PLers, squatting IS the skill/sport. If Hossein Rezzazadeh decided to say to hell with OL and wanted to push his squat numbers as high as he could, I guarantee he would be NOT be squatting daily.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  25. #25
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    462 atg Olympic squat.

    Loads for working set are anywhere from 375 to 440, usually from 3-5 reps. I squat with these kinda of loads daily.
    Ok, right. Now, you are saying that you squat 7 days per week?

    How many sets at those loads?

    How many days per week will you use over 400 lbs?


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