The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #251
    cakin Cirino83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post

    and why are you quoting Sensei? Deutoronomy is from the Old testament lol. You need to excuse yourself out of this conversation, you're playing a little out of your league.
    I'll admit I am. I have my opinions on the ORIGINAL TOPIC which I stated many times. Somehow the thread is about Muslim religion and testaments which I could give two ****s about. I have never and will never read about their religion as it doesn't interest me.... I do know that they are some sick ****s (the extremists)

  2. #252
    cakin Cirino83's Avatar
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    Back to the OP. My religion is against homosexuality. Should I make a stink and try to get private time so I don't have to be associated with them while I work out? The extremists in my religion probably wouldn't do that.

    Muslim beliefs FTW!!!! lol

  3. #253
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrelwooddowd View Post
    You can call it whatever you want, but if the situation was different and somehow was keeping black students out of the gym, or was favoring only the Christians...?

    Yeah.
    You're missing the point,...they are setting aside time for a specific gender to workout without the presence of men, not a religion or ethnicity. It's not a public institution so they may act as they please.

    The moral case for it is this, they are acting in their own rational self interest's. As a private institution they are legally protected to act in the former way.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  4. #254
    Likes to lick windows bigred1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    If you see a pretty woman among your captives and would like her for a wife, then bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can simply "let her go." (Deuteronomy 21:11-14)

    3. If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

    I'm not sure that there is any point whatsoever in quoting the Quran or the Old Testament (included in the Quran btw), or the New Testament (also included in the Quran btw) for this discussion. There are radical a-holes in every religion.
    guess you didnt read my post that was right above what you just quoted did you.
    6-6 288 lbs 33 yo 20 % bodyfat



    Don't you ****ing dare, woman. He needs to keep batting for the pink team so he can keep dispensing fashion advice and such. If you cure him, he turns into a regular color blind tard-ass tripod-Viking-- this was regarding TwiloMike. RIP guy.

    Im gona have to start wearing wrist wraps just to wipe lol- Hatred

  5. #255
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirino83 View Post
    Back to the OP. My religion is against homosexuality. Should I make a stink and try to get private time so I don't have to be associated with them while I work out? The extremists in my religion probably wouldn't do that.

    Muslim beliefs FTW!!!! lol
    But does your religion state that you have to be covered in the presence of gays? No... Therefore, there is no problem with you working out around gays.

    I'm really sick of all the BUT WHAT IFs in this thread... That's why I stopped posting before.. I think all the extreme examples have been beaten to death and in the end it really doesn't matter what kind of example you come up with it just doesn't compare to the present situation.
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  6. #256
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    The moral case for it is this, they are acting in their own rational self interest's. As a private institution they are legally protected to act in the former way.
    I feel like a broken record when I say that I am a libertarian, I think what they are doing is perfectly legal, and I still think it's morally wrong and there's nothing wrong with me commenting on it.

    Maybe you don't think that's morally wrong, but there's no reason why we can't discuss this.

    I think even Paul has come around to agree.

  7. #257
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigred1974 View Post
    guess you didnt read my post that was right above what you just quoted did you.
    Yes I did. Point?
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
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  8. #258
    Likes to lick windows bigred1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Yes I did. Point?
    point: I already mentioned what you decided you needed to quote me on and correct me on in a post prior. that is my point.
    6-6 288 lbs 33 yo 20 % bodyfat



    Don't you ****ing dare, woman. He needs to keep batting for the pink team so he can keep dispensing fashion advice and such. If you cure him, he turns into a regular color blind tard-ass tripod-Viking-- this was regarding TwiloMike. RIP guy.

    Im gona have to start wearing wrist wraps just to wipe lol- Hatred

  9. #259
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I'm too lazy to go back and figure out what the hell you are talking about, but I'll take your word for it. Happy big red chihuahua?
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrelwooddowd View Post
    You can call it whatever you want, but if the situation was different and somehow was keeping black students out of the gym, or was favoring only the Christians...?

    Yeah.

    Both would then be wrong. One would be excluding a group based on the color of their skin. That is legally and morally wrong. But that is not what is happening here.


    If it only favored the Christians that again would be legally and morally wrong. That would be discrimination on the grounds of one's religion. But again that is not what is happening here. Muslim women have no problem working out with Christian women or Hindu women et cetera.

    And there are three other gyms which are open to men all the time. And those three are more conveniently located. And that one gym is open to men 64 hours of the week. All the "what ifs" and "but ifs" do not change these facts, I'm not even going to get into the fact that Harvard is a private institution and can do what they want.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-13-2008 at 01:08 AM.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    I feel like a broken record when I say that I am a libertarian, I think what they are doing is perfectly legal, and I still think it's morally wrong and there's nothing wrong with me commenting on it.

    Maybe you don't think that's morally wrong, but there's no reason why we can't discuss this.

    I think even Paul has come around to agree.

    Would you think it's discrimination and morally wrong for Harvard to have their gyms open for only 70 hours a week? Suppose some people who want to work out can't during the normal times? But they've paid their fees like everybody else so they should be entitled to go in and workout at 2 AM if they so choose. Let's say they protest because they claim they're being banned from the gym.

    Would you support them then? I should hope not. Why? Because it's the policy of the gyms only to be open at certain hours, just as much as it is now the policy of ONE gym to allow the gym to be open to only one gender for a few hours per week.

    When you live in a country you don't get to pick and choose which laws to follow. Likewise when you attend a place you don't get to pick and choose which policies not to follow. If you don't even attend said place...aren't there more relevant things to complain about?

    If it irks you THAT much then start a campaign for change. Otherwise it's complaining for the sake of complaining.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-13-2008 at 01:22 AM.

  12. #262
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    I feel like a broken record when I say that I am a libertarian, I think what they are doing is perfectly legal, and I still think it's morally wrong and there's nothing wrong with me commenting on it.

    Maybe you don't think that's morally wrong, but there's no reason why we can't discuss this.

    I think even Paul has come around to agree.
    You're missing the point as well. Legally and morally this is right. Harvard is acting in their own self interest by being tolerant of a specific gender's need, for a variety of reasons. Therefore it is a morally correct action.

    All of the previous examples given about excluding ethnicities, religions, etc... are not valid retorts, as then Harvard would not be acting out of their own rational self interest.

    Read some Ayn Rand.
    Last edited by CrazyK; 03-13-2008 at 02:29 AM.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  13. #263
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    You're missing the point as well. Legally and morally this is right. Harvard is acting in their own self interest by being tolerant of a specific gender's need, for a variety of reasons. Therefore it is a morally correct action.

    All of the previous examples given about excluding ethnicities, religions, etc... are not valid retorts, as then Harvard would not be acting out of their own rational self interest.

    Read some Ayn Rand.
    I have read The Fountainhead.

    And my point is that it's A TOPIC THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED. Whether Harvard is legally able to do what they do is not a topic that can be discussed--because it's not.

    There seems to be clear disagreement over whether it is a moral/ethical policy still. I think it's debatable a the least.

    And if people deem this immoral, then it's not acting in Harvard's self-interest. Again, I think it's a mixed verdict, but the point is you can't say HARVARD IS A PRIVATE ENTITY SO THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, CASE CLOSED. That is stupid.

  14. #264
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    And if people deem this immoral, then it's not acting in Harvard's self-interest. Again, I think it's a mixed verdict, but the point is you can't say HARVARD IS A PRIVATE ENTITY SO THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, CASE CLOSED. That is stupid.
    Legally as you said, that is case closed. Morally it is case closed as well. As a progressive institution wanting to show that they will at the least take in to consideration their student's concerns and beliefs, it is in their rational self interest to let the girls have 6 hours a week. Therefore it is morally justified.

    Ok so one ethical system says it's right...Let's look at the utilitarian perspective on this...

    Consequentially more happiness is derived from the woman on campus who could get 6 hours a week to themselves versus the negative effect on happiness from a given male student having to walk an extra 100 yards to the next gym during those 6 hours. Therefore it is morally right to take this action.

    Kant's moral imperative...

    There are absolute moral rules everyone must follow. You make these rules based on the intentions of the individual action in question. The intention of this action is to grant woman more privacy, and it does not exclude men from working out at these times, they simply walk another 100 yards. Therefore the rule is, we should make accomadations when reasonable. Therefore it is morally right to take this action.

    Aristotle's Virtue ethics...

    Virtues and vices to be applied to this. It shows a great deal of compassion and tolerance to accomodate woman who don't want to workout in the presence of men. It is a reasonable amount of time set aside, so you are not being unvirtuous to the male members of the student body. Therefore it is morally right to take this action.

    Want anymore and I'll be happy to provide.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  15. #265
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Legally as you said, that is case closed. Morally it is case closed as well. As a progressive institution wanting to show that they will at the least take in to consideration their student's concerns and beliefs, it is in their rational self interest to let the girls have 6 hours a week. Therefore it is morally justified.
    No, it's not morally justified because it apparently outrages others in the student body, and so it's not really in their self-interest.

    I also don't buy into Ayn Rand's "acting in self-interest" is the "moral" thing to do. I think that it makes sense to always act in self-interest, and that is the philisophical advice I'd give to everyone, but if you want to be a moral person, your actions should work towards improving the well-being of humanity.


    Consequentially more happiness is derived from the woman on campus who could get 6 hours a week to themselves versus the negative effect on happiness from a given male student having to walk an extra 100 yards to the next gym during those 6 hours. Therefore it is morally right to take this action.
    I like utilitarianism, but values still matter. This action has very negative indirect consequences, that ultimately, in the long run, lead to loss in overall utility.


    There are absolute moral rules everyone must follow. You make these rules based on the intentions of the individual action in question. The intention of this action is to grant woman more privacy, and it does not exclude men from working out at these times, they simply walk another 100 yards. Therefore the rule is, we should make accomadations when reasonable. Therefore it is morally right to take this action.
    I don't like Kant's view. I think means and ends are more important.
    Last edited by KingJustin; 03-13-2008 at 03:56 PM.

  16. #266
    Likes to lick windows bigred1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    I'm too lazy to go back and figure out what the hell you are talking about, but I'll take your word for it. Happy big red chihuahua?
    No actually Im not. I cant get my bench lifts to increase regardless of what I do
    6-6 288 lbs 33 yo 20 % bodyfat



    Don't you ****ing dare, woman. He needs to keep batting for the pink team so he can keep dispensing fashion advice and such. If you cure him, he turns into a regular color blind tard-ass tripod-Viking-- this was regarding TwiloMike. RIP guy.

    Im gona have to start wearing wrist wraps just to wipe lol- Hatred

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    No, it's not morally justified because it apparently outrages others in the student body, and so it's not really in their self-interest.

    Oh really? Where is this "outrage"? Two people complained. Neither seemed that outraged. As far as outrage goes it seems that people in this thread are becoming more outraged than anybody in the article given some of the language used.

    I also don't buy into Ayn Rand's "acting in self-interest" is the "moral" thing to do. I think that it makes sense to always act in self-interest, and that is the philisophical advice I'd give to everyone, but if you want to be a moral person, your actions should work towards improving the well-being of humanity.

    And humanity includes Muslims and other religious groups. You can't say "your actions should work towards improving the well-being of humanity" and then turn around and hamper religious groups when they want to practise their religion



    I like utilitarianism, but values still matter. This action has very negative indirect consequences, that ultimately, in the long run, lead to loss in overall utility.
    Harvard apparently disagrees with you. Hmmm, I wonder who is more likely to be right? Given Harvard's reputation and now this tolerance, I daresay more wealthy Muslims will likely be going there thus raising Harvard's revenues. I'm sure they'll be crying all the way to the bank.




    I don't like Kant's view. I think means and ends are more important.
    Means and ends are important. In this case means=letting Muslim girls practise an aspect of their faith and ends=potentially more students to spend money there.

  18. #268
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    In any event I don't know why this thread is still going on because we are just talking past each other and nobody has made any new points for the last few pages anyway.

    So I'm going to bow out of here.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-13-2008 at 09:27 PM.

  19. #269
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    No, it's not morally justified because it apparently outrages others in the student body, and so it's not really in their self-interest.

    I also don't buy into Ayn Rand's "acting in self-interest" is the "moral" thing to do. I think that it makes sense to always act in self-interest, and that is the philisophical advice I'd give to everyone, but if you want to be a moral person, your actions should work towards improving the well-being of humanity.

    One always does act in their self interest. Ayn Rand takes another step saying that one ought to act in their rational self interest. What you just described as your moral platform is altruism. Which has enormous downfalls, but don't buy it if you like. I didn't read about anyone that was outraged on campus, a few found it annoying according to the article, but no one was protesting.


    I like utilitarianism, but values still matter. This action has very negative indirect consequences, that ultimately, in the long run, lead to loss in overall utility. Name the indirect consequences? Everyone can still workout whenever they want. It is very clear that the happiness derived by people that want to workout without the prescence of men for 6 hours a week far outweighs the happiness lost by those having to walk an extra 100 yards to workout. And please,...no slippery slopes. This is NOT a public institution, they DO NOT have to let every person out there have their way.



    I don't like Kant's view. I think means and ends are more important. Kant viewed both as important but did not think that a moral patient should be a means to anyone's ends.
    Responses in bold.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  20. #270
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigred1974 View Post
    No actually Im not. I cant get my bench lifts to increase regardless of what I do
    More time in the gym and less in general chat might help.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  21. #271
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Oh come on, Sensei. Who makes progress training all day long?

    One always does act in their self interest. Ayn Rand takes another step saying that one ought to act in their rational self interest. What you just described as your moral platform is altruism. Which has enormous downfalls, but don't buy it if you like. I didn't read about anyone that was outraged on campus, a few found it annoying according to the article, but no one was protesting.
    As I mentioned, I've read the Fountainhead, and I understand Objectivism. I just don't buy the fact that altruism is ultimately immoral. It's like she can use indirect consequences to benefit her philosophy, but then not consider indirect consequences in the other philosophy (i.e. to be truly altruistic, you have to be altruistic in moderation). I do agree that people always attempt to act in their self-interest, though.


    Name the indirect consequences?
    (This is what the post ultimately comes down to. All of these philosophies, aside from one that only recognizes the goal of the action, come down to this)
    The indirect consequence is that they are a highly respected institution of higher learning, yet their decision will ultimately result in them (a) blatantly favoring some religions over others, or (b) allowing individuals to use religion to break legitimate, and important rules. This ultimately works against their goals (recruiting the country's best students, keeping the best faculty, gaining more money towards endowment, leading in cutting edge research, etc).

  22. #272
    Likes to lick windows bigred1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    More time in the gym and less in general chat might help.
    Im only on here at work, shhhh
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    Don't you ****ing dare, woman. He needs to keep batting for the pink team so he can keep dispensing fashion advice and such. If you cure him, he turns into a regular color blind tard-ass tripod-Viking-- this was regarding TwiloMike. RIP guy.

    Im gona have to start wearing wrist wraps just to wipe lol- Hatred

  23. #273
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    (This is what the post ultimately comes down to. All of these philosophies, aside from one that only recognizes the goal of the action, come down to this)
    The indirect consequence is that they are a highly respected institution of higher learning, yet their decision will ultimately result in them (a) blatantly favoring some religions over others, or (b) allowing individuals to use religion to break legitimate, and important rules. This ultimately works against their goals (recruiting the country's best students, keeping the best faculty, gaining more money towards endowment, leading in cutting edge research, etc).
    So what this comes down to is that you are of the opinion that you are better informed and more rational a decision maker on this topic then the Harvard faculty and staff.

    To your retorts, (A) is not true as they have not disregarded the REASONABLE needs of any strongly organized religion over another. (B) They broke no rules, Harvard sets the rules. I have not read anywhere that Harvard has a rule against woman being able to workout without the presence of men.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  24. #274
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJustin View Post
    Oh come on, Sensei. Who makes progress training all day long?
    If his posts at WBB are any indication as to how much time he spends training versus talking, I don't think anyone has to worry about Chihuahua overtraining - that's all I'm saying.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  25. #275
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirino83 View Post
    I understand that, but more than likely they live by the American ways if that is the case, and if that is the case, I have no problem with them. It's when they come over here and expect us to adapt to them...not vice versa.
    America is two things.

    1. Freedom (religion included)
    2. Capitalism

    Harvard is American in both senses with its decision.

    You are one thing.

    1. Biggot

    /fin

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