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Thread: Size Training

  1. #1
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    Size Training

    Here is my opinon ;o

    First we must identify what's the cause of size increase. It's bigger muscles
    the cause of strenght increase is for a large part a more efficient Central Nervous System and bigger muscles. bigger muscles will make your potential of strenght bigger but not directly increase your strenght or just a little bit.

    When you work your muscle to make them bigger you use their strenght.

    Ok then what's the limiting factor ? It's strenght ! Because no more strenght => you can't work your muscles anymore ! And strenght is CNS !

    => CNS is the limiting factor.

    IF I bench press 10x300 to failure I reached my limit of strenght. But what about my pectorals ? Are they still ready to lift weight ? YEP !!! They are not exhausted they are not deads.

    But with this HEAVY set you stressed a lot of your CNS... it's not the way to train your muscles but your CNS.

    Now how to train ?!

    For Strenght you must use all your CNS capacity in a set = Training to FAILURE you can do more sets to failure if you use the same weight. I don't know if doing 2 sets to failure with the same weight will be better than 1... I would say no !!! Training to failure represent the MAXIMUM that you can do on a specific lift, the maximum that your CNS can do. Then next time you train you'll put more weight on the bar because your CNS is more efficient. Low reps will put more stress on your CNS. But if you train with 3-5 reps you'll be stronger in this range ! If you train with 6-10 you'll be stronger in this range !


    For Size (I mean maximum size gains because strenght training will make your muscles bigger too but slower) you must use your CNS capacity to work your muscle as much as they can/need. Muscles don't know how much you lift they just can flex and involve fibers (= muscular's cells). You must work your muscles to their limit (can't flex anymore). Then they will be bigger. Because musclar's cells are about being big or small NOT weak or strong !


    To favour muscle's work and not your CNS I would do like that :

    1) avoid failure or failure but with high reps 10-15. (it should save your CNS to a certain degree). Stop a set when you cannot concentrate anymore on your muscle and begin to concentrate on your barbbel/dumbells.

    2) work LIGHT but good form and breathing, FEEL your muscles. Be concentrate on your muscles not on barbbel.

    3) quiet slow cadence (2-3 positive 3-4 negative) this should prevent too heavy load and allow you to focus on muscles and help you for concentration and contraction.

    4) train frequently (each muscles 2-3x per week) because muscles can recover very fast perhaps they don't need to "recover" but your CNS need a lot of time. So try to avoid failure, train light with high reps.

    5) train to maximal pump, burns. You should not be able to flex your arms because of pump That's impossible but that's your goal

    6) rest time between sets should be very low (10 to 30 seconds) because your goal is to work your muscle until their limit (can't flex). If you wait 3 minutes between sets you will be able to lift more weight but your muscle will recuperate. so it'll be something like work pause work pause work pause. your muscles pass from 100% of their capacity to 50 then 90 to 40 then 80 to 30 etc... it's not the best way. I think the best way is 100 to 0 with realy little rest time.

    example : Barbbel Curl 1 set until it becomes too hard to focus on muscles. rest 10 sec One set lighter. rest 10-20 sec Dumbbels on incline becnh 1 set. rest 10 sec 1 set lighter. 10-20 go to spider curl 1 set 1 set lighter. If your biceps are not pumped to iron and can flex easily after that just do another cycle WITHOUT REST or continue with others exercices.

    7) use isolations movements because compouds don't allow you to work a specific muscle ! Compound are strenght exercices. Isolations size exercices. Use many exercices insteed of 1 because muscles should work from different angles for maximal gains. I cannot developp but many studies show us that.... Fro example : Lateral Raises are not enough for TRAPS + SHOULDERS


    8) High reps 10-15 (or even more) Because it'll save your CNS and allow a longer time under tension fo your muscles. Longer TUT should be better but then you'll work with so light weight that they won't allow a full contraction of muscles. it's why you need to rest 10-20 sec between sets to be able to take a weight heavy enough to allow full contraction and enough tension on muscles. When muscles are tired, relatively "light weights" are enough for stimulation and tension and full contraction. Don't forget that muscles don't know how much your lift. Depending on their "health" (first set or 10th) it'll be hard or easy for them to lift 10x100.


    Ok that's all ;O what do you think ?!

    I'll just summary the 2 more important point in my opinion :

    1) don't work your CNS (see above)

    2) work your muscles to their limit in a minimum of time. => Densitiy. 1 set 2 min rest 1 set 2 min rest will never allow you to work your muscles until their limit. You'll just lift hevier because of partial recovery. Lifting heavy/heaviest is not required. Reduce rest time to the minimum to get a quasi continue TUT until your muscles get tetanized or nearly !

    => this kind of training is SUPER HARD ! Don't think that lifting relatively light is easy. Because if you lift light it's because your muscles's are near to their limit. it's mainly not because your CNS. Because of the "NATURE" of your training, size training (see above).



    My god I'm creazy :o But I love it '_';,
    Last edited by Gavan; 03-21-2002 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    What!? You're saying that to increase in size you should:

    1) avoid lifting to failure
    2) use a light weight
    4) train each muscle group 3x per week
    6) only rest 10 seconds between sets
    7) not use compound movement exercises (ie: squats, bench press)
    8) use high reps and high number of sets

    Um, yeah. You're right, i definitely think you're "creazy".
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  3. #3
    Joey54's crazy partner DumbbellTosser's Avatar
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    but I advanced so reasons why you should do all of these
    Last edited by Gavan; 03-21-2002 at 12:10 PM.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  5. #5
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    ROFL!!!!!!!!! 'Do only isolation movements' HAAAAAAAAAahahahahhaa I'm sorry, I don't even have a joke good enough for that...........*leaves thread to go do 15 sets of concentration curls*

  6. #6
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    There is a bit of truth in this post(Athough it's obscured by an equal amount of stupid stuff.) Bryan Haycock has already done an exhaustive examination of the literature dealing with hypertrophy. This resulted in the ideas underlying HST--some of which are actually quite similar to the system you propose here. If you are solely concerned with hypertrophy, I think HST would be a much better choice.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    not only isolations but a lot of :o someting like a compoud movement then 2-3 isolations movements.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  8. #8
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    Ok, here's the one of the inherent flaws in the program. The 'studies' done to determine what was effective was done on PRO-BODYBUILDERS! These ass-clowns are juiced to the gills and whatever they do is going to work. I commend Brian Haycock for promoting exactly what every sloth in the gym that makes no progress does. People have a tendency to coddle themselves, to take the easy way out, and to make excuses to enable their lazy behavior. Every time I go to the gym I see some 140 lbs. kid doing set after set of Cable crossovers and leg extensions because the champions do them. They do have their place in training, but not until you've got something to work with. Who needs concentration curls to work on a 13" arm???? Give me something to work with here...how much do you weigh at what height and what is your bodyfat levels?
    "You see clouds to the West, immediately you say, 'It is going to rain.' and it does. And when the South wind blows, you say, 'It is going to be hot.' Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? Why don't you decide for yourselves what is right?" ~ Jesus speaking in Luke 12:54-57

  9. #9
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Berzerker666
    Ok, here's the one of the inherent flaws in the program. The 'studies' done to determine what was effective was done on PRO-BODYBUILDERS! These ass-clowns are juiced to the gills and whatever they do is going to work.
    This is one of the the stupidest f*cking things I've heard in quite some time. Do you know anything at all about how such studies are conducted? Nevermind, actually; I already know the answer.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  10. #10
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Look folks, no point arguing about this.

    The basis of hypertrophy is physical loading. To increase muscular size, you simply have to go beyond the muscle's capability, within a certain zone. This zone in most cases is between 5-10RM in a given lift, or 75-90% of your 1RM.

    There's also an issue of a tension-time curve which is related to the above zone, and may allow for a wider "spread" of hypertrophic stimuli (such as higher reps or explosive reps), and the effect of eccentric action.

    But that's really about it. Anything that falls into those admittedly broad categories will work. Which is why you tend to see results from a LOT of programs.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  11. #11
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    I'd reply but I'm still doing concentration curls...I'm about to move on to db kick backs with the 2.5 lbs. db's

  12. #12
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    Yes, actually I do. Nearly all studies done on subjects similiar to this are either done on either two groups of people; people with little or no weight training experience or elite athletes (such as bodybuilders whether or not you actually consider them athletes) who may or may not use perfomance enhancing substances. The problem with that however is that very few studies exist on hypertrophy in human beings. Most studies are studying the effects of weight training on limit strength, speed strength and strength endurance for what else...athletes OR the endocrine response to training. To be blunt, the scientific community is not very interested at all in maximum muscle size as it serves very little practical application to most strength athletes and there is very little money to be made from it. I could take waste my time and show you how few references there are to hypertrophy as opposed to strength or endocrinology but there are simply too many. Here is an idea for you though, look in your bodybuilding magazines, etc. and look at the references. Very few ever mention hypertrophy and human in the same reference. The ones that do are almost invariably people you've heard of several times including but not limited to: Ellington Darden, PhD, Fred Hatfield, PhD, Arthur Jones, PhD, et al. Next time you go spouting off at the mouth and even using expletives with nothing whatsoever to back your ideas up but, "You're a doodie-head" do some of your own research instead of just believing a bunch of hype you've read from some internet site or magazine. If nothing else, take some of the examples of successful drug free weight trainers that have a similiar structure to your own. Do they do this training? I highly doubt it.
    "You see clouds to the West, immediately you say, 'It is going to rain.' and it does. And when the South wind blows, you say, 'It is going to be hot.' Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? Why don't you decide for yourselves what is right?" ~ Jesus speaking in Luke 12:54-57

  13. #13
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    This thread is getting out of hand, too insulting. Let's not be that way.


    I think think Gavan has given this quite a bit of thought, and I think he has proposed some interesting ideas. I don't agree with some of it, but it is thought provoking.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    Chris it's not a problem for me I know when you put your ideas (any topics) and my ideas are a little bit provoking. guys will laugh and act like bad boys If some of them could demonstrate me why I'm wrong it should be more interesting.

    and why not 5 sets of concentrate curls ? :=) Perhaps you could add one inch to your arms in less time than with only chins up !

    Or try this way of training just for 2-3 weeks. nealry nothing to lose ! and perhaps a lot to gain ! Vince Gironda and Jim Serilski proposes a High Density of traning and the utilisation of isolations movements (not only). Poliquin proposes to use "light weight". In his german volume training you have to train with your 20RM for 10x10 ! It's what I call "light weigt" but even if the first sets will be easy.... when fibers fatigue the 2-3 last sets will be HORRIBLE !.... I could continue like this but........ I read a lot, I tried HST for 5 weeks. I gained 0.5k of lean mass... I decided to leave because it was not enough ! I read Haycock theory. But you'll be surprised to know that RUSSIANS made some interpretations of sicence, of the same experiments that are OPPOSITE to Bryan explanations and interpretations...

    Jones used the non-rest between sets/exercices and made good progress both in size and strenght. He worked with perfect form too with a "slow" or controled cadence....

    I just want to say that my goal is size and that I don't want to waste time lifting for nohing in the way of size. I try to understand the "science" or phylosophy of weightlifting and to have my own explanations and theory. (that's hard)

    I wasted 3 years to lift for no results (realy poor 8kg of lean mass in 3 years) because I was not aware of proper diet, of intensity, of overtraning etc... Since one year I search for the best way to train for size and made a lot of experiments (many differents kind of training). I think my gains are quiet good perhaps even very good....but I want to do better ever BETTER => FASTER GAINS !!!

    As Arthur Jones said : there is no physiological reasons why you couldn't continue to progress in this way (like beginners)

    If your body has been able to put 10lbl of muscles in your first 2 month pf weightlifting then it's able to continue with this cadence !!!

    no physiological reasons why it could not !!! so you can do it... but you need to ask your body to continue like this !! you must continue to impose a HARD SHOCK to your muscles !.....

    ok I go to sleep Good Night
    Last edited by Gavan; 03-21-2002 at 05:24 PM.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  15. #15
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gavan
    As Arthur Jones said : there is no physiological reasons why you couldn't continue to progress in this way (like beginners)

    If your body has been able to put 10lbl of muscles in your first 2 month pf weightlifting then it's able to continue with this cadence !!!

    no physiological reasons why it could not !!!

    Actually there are physiological reasons why you can't keep that pace up.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #16
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    Those reasons would be a genetic set point. Recently there's been a gene that was discovered to possible be the limiting gene in muscle development called Myostatin. Whether this is just hype remains to be seen but even if it's not, I do believe there is a genetic set point to which any person can go but it's highly individual. Not everyone can have Platz's thighs, or Arnold's biceps. You could add mass at an exponential rate until you hit your "genetic ceiling." After that if you so choose to you can debate if anabolics are worth it to you. Certainly not for me.
    "You see clouds to the West, immediately you say, 'It is going to rain.' and it does. And when the South wind blows, you say, 'It is going to be hot.' Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? Why don't you decide for yourselves what is right?" ~ Jesus speaking in Luke 12:54-57

  17. #17
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    it's not what Arthur said !!! there is a limit genetic ok ! But you can continue to progress as fast as when you were a beginner until you reach this limit !

    example : you bodyweight is 140lbl => 3 month of weight lifting => 160 => then you do another session of 3 month => bodyweight 165 !! ;(( What happend ?

    why didn't you put another 20lbl in 3 month ? Arthur said there is no physiological reasons why you couldn't !

    The reason is that when you are beginner and start weight lifintg the SHOCK is very HIGH !! Then the body adapt ! but if you can give the same SHOCK to your body then he will grow in the same way (in my example 20lbl each 3 month). So... the idea of "HIGH intensity training" !!

    But the limit will differ from individuals that's a fact. Anyway we are not speaking about the LIMIT but physiologicaly possible the rate of progress
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  18. #18
    Mystic Eric
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Look folks, no point arguing about this.

    The basis of hypertrophy is physical loading. To increase muscular size, you simply have to go beyond the muscle's capability, within a certain zone. This zone in most cases is between 5-10RM in a given lift, or 75-90% of your 1RM.

    There's also an issue of a tension-time curve which is related to the above zone, and may allow for a wider "spread" of hypertrophic stimuli (such as higher reps or explosive reps), and the effect of eccentric action.

    But that's really about it. Anything that falls into those admittedly broad categories will work. Which is why you tend to see results from a LOT of programs.
    For the first time power, I could understand 100% what you just said... Thank god for Siff...

  19. #19
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gavan
    it's not what Arthur said !!! there is a limit genetic ok ! But you can continue to progress as fast as when you were a beginner until you reach this limit !

    example : you bodyweight is 140lbl => 3 month of weight lifting => 160 => then you do another session of 3 month => bodyweight 165 !! ;(( What happend ?

    why didn't you put another 20lbl in 3 month ? Arthur said there is no physiological reasons why you couldn't !

    The reason is that when you are beginner and start weight lifintg the SHOCK is very HIGH !! Then the body adapt ! but if you can give the same SHOCK to your body then he will grow in the same way (in my example 20lbl each 3 month). So... the idea of "HIGH intensity training" !!

    But the limit will differ from individuals that's a fact. Anyway we are not speaking about the LIMIT but physiologicaly possible the rate of progress
    Yes, there is a limit to the rate of gains as well. Once your body has adapted to the initial stressors imposed when you begin training, it becomes very efficient at handling those stressors. There's no way to get around that fact.

    Because of that, the rate at which you gain will steadily slow down over time.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  20. #20
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
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    gavan; muscle growth is controlled by the brain. u don't grow b/c u exhaust the muscles, u grow cuz ur brain detects a certain amount of stimuli (muscle failure) to produce a reaction (muscles get stronger to prevent failure at using that weight). there is a theory called absolute threshold, which is the intensity of a stimulus to produce a response half the time. using heavy weight is about abs threshold, using lite weights hardly hits this point.
    here's something that makes sense for those who don'tundestand scientific mumbo jumbo: ur muscles will grow only when u give it a reason to grow, which is to get stronger. ur muscles have no reason to grow w/ isolations, hi reps, exhaustion, etc, does not give a reason for ur muscles to grow.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
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  21. #21
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
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    btw, where did u get ur info? is there any scientific reason why it would work? I dont' mean tests/results, imean, theory, or an explanation? there's a lot of modern ones to explain training to failure (i like maxot's explanation, it's very simple and make sense). a "case study" or "testing" is not really reliable, b/c it doesn't reflect the average person.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
    The most important drug is to train like a madman
    -really like a madman
    The people who accuse me are those who have never trained once in their life as I train every day of my life."

    Alexandr Karelin
    Ten-time World Greco-Roman Champion
    1988, 1992, 1996 Olympic gold medalist

    current stats (10/19/03): 20yrs, M, 5'4 @160lbs, ~11% body fat
    lifted since march 2000
    occupation:MCB major @ uc berkeley

  22. #22
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Podium Kreatin
    gavan; muscle growth is controlled by the brain. u don't grow b/c u exhaust the muscles, u grow cuz ur brain detects a certain amount of stimuli (muscle failure) to produce a reaction (muscles get stronger to prevent failure at using that weight).
    Not true.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  23. #23
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I'm cutting you guys a lot of slack here, because some of you are making very valid points.

    Discuss the topic, not how stupid each other are.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
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  24. #24
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
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    Not true.
    muscle contraction iteself is controlled by the brain. how is that not true? also, the theory of absolute threshold applies to almost everything that animals can get better on, including excercise. exhaustion is the result of oxygen deficit, lactic acid concentrations, or deficit of resources. these do not produce a stimulus to get stronger.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
    The most important drug is to train like a madman
    -really like a madman
    The people who accuse me are those who have never trained once in their life as I train every day of my life."

    Alexandr Karelin
    Ten-time World Greco-Roman Champion
    1988, 1992, 1996 Olympic gold medalist

    current stats (10/19/03): 20yrs, M, 5'4 @160lbs, ~11% body fat
    lifted since march 2000
    occupation:MCB major @ uc berkeley

  25. #25
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    but you don't need bigger muscles to be stronger ! you only need a more efficient central nervous system !

    It's why many hiters don't grow, it's why some powerlifters stay in their weight class for years. It's why in Power To People Pavel explain that you can loss muscles and become stronger.

    The reason why our body need bigger muscles.... I don't know... I think nobody know. But perhaps it's because of a certain volume of work.

    Pavel speaks about muscle's fatigue, Poliquin too.

    Brief and intense effort like 5x5RM to failure 1x per week => you need to be stronger => your CNS will become more efficient (after a full recovery) to be able to lift more weight next time. But your body won't make your muscles bigger or a little bit....

    But if you do 4x10 to failure or not 1-3 per week then you'll be bigger and perhaps stronger (if CNS rest time is long enough for recovery and that the stress was sufficient).

    But why 4 sets (high reps) will make you bigger than one set (low rep). It's a fact gyus :o I think the reason is muscle's fatigue... depending of a certain volume/density of training.

    Plus high reps and hihg volume will allow you to stock more glycogen and water.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

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