The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Well, first and foremost, Arthur Jones did put multiple sets of identical twins on the same routines for set periods of time. In most cases, the expected occured, the twins responded identically. However, in a few of the cases, the twins responded very differently. Jones was at a complete loss to explain this, as science says that the two are genetically identical. Very interesting to say the least.

    Now, if we assume they would both respond identically to a given exercise, and all other factors were removed, let us look at the 2 scenarios. Ok, the 1st routine works the chest, shoulders, upper back, biceps, triceps, and the abs. The second routine works the chest, shoulders, upper back, biceps, triceps, and the abs. The incline presses, arguably, may hit the chest a little differently than the barbell bench, so you may see a tad different development there. The laterals place more specific stress on the lateral delts, so you may see a tad of difference there. Not much difference between the 2 types of rows, curls, or tricep exercises. The abs may be hit a bit differently with the 2 exercises, so there may be some difference there. In the end, you may have some variance in the physiques, but not much.

    Another way to look at this bait, errr....I mean argument, is to compare what has happened in my own 14 years of training. I have performed just about every exercise (not all, but most) over the years, and yet even when using different movements I never noticed any real difference in my physique other than getting bigger overall. I never noticed a significant difference in my overall shape (of course, I always worked all of the major muscle groups regardless of the specific exercises chosen). Once again I will also use the Arnold example, if specific exercises significantly altered shape, why could Arnold never get his left biceps to peak like his right? In addition, if you look at all of Arnold's pics over the years, why did his basic shape never really change much? he certainly experimented with various exercises over the years. Yet, he really only got bigger overall, not radically changed in shape.

  2. #27
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    If you are going to failure and stressing as near 100% of the muscle fibres as you can I don't see how you can alter or shape things at all. It's nice to hope that is the case but there is no reason to believe it.

    Your muscle shape is predetermined but the size is a function of training and diet. If two twins hit the same muscles to failure with the same diet then the results should be the same. Some of the variations will hit other muscles differently though so there I think will be some slight variation but their muscles will grow into the exact same shape according to their genetics. So with the same weight and bodyfat levels there will be little difference at all. I can't think of any physiological reason to believe otherwise.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

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    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

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  3. #28
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    I think as a muscle develops and gets larger, the shape can change slightly or at least give that illusion, but that has nothing to do with the selection of exercises.
    "****, if you told teenagers it was trendy to wear a paper bag on their heads with holes for the eyes they'd all be doing it."

  4. #29
    Simplistic
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    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    1 billion people believe budda is a supreme being.
    hundreds of millions believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.
    Who's right?
    I don't care what you'believe'. I care about how muscles work.
    Can these people see Budda? I've seen it and experienced competitors tell me it works. You can spit all the science you want and it can't compete with what my own eyes and body have told me.

  5. #30
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I've never seen it.

    Most people who say they have are not interpreting what they see correctly.

    People used to swear Bill Pearl had shanged his bicep shape... what really happened was he learned how to pose to make them look better. Happens all the time.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
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  6. #31
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Neil
    You can spit all the science you want and it can't compete with what my own eyes and body have told me.
    So using your logic taking a hallucinogen and see some imaginary thing is real because you saw it with your own eyes?

    True science is pretty rock solid, objective, and can be reviewed by peers...people sometimes see things they want to see whether it's there or not.

    I will always believe something that can be proven, and people have attempted to disprove and failed, versus something that only one person has experienced, and is completely subjective, and can neither be proven or disproven.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  7. #32
    Simplistic
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    Originally posted by ElPietro


    So using your logic taking a hallucinogen and see some imaginary thing is real because you saw it with your own eyes?
    So using your logic I'm taking a hallucinogen

  8. #33
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Uhh...no, but you could be hallucinating. Basically, I'm arguing that everything you think you see isn't necessarily as it seems. So you saying you saw it isn't good enough for me, when it is contradicted by logical science.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  9. #34
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    I think this is a silly question.

    It's like asking us if we had the same genetics as Arnold and performed the same regimin as him. Would we turn out like him.

    Never gonna happen so why bother asking. It makes no sense??
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  10. #35
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gopro
    Sorry about the lack of squats Paul. The completness of the program was not the point, as I'm sure you know. If it make you happy, than add in squats, lol.

    OK, so you guys think they would look the same. I think you are sooooo wrong.

    I think you guys actually believe that you could reach your genetic potential by picking one basic exercise per muscle group and simply increasing weight or reps or both...and that as long as you progress continuously(which is impossible)you will reach the full muscle size and shape your gentics will allow.

    Wow...that is so ludicrous!

    *** No, using a wide variety of exercise helps efficiently target as many muscle fibres as one can. This enables one to effectively allow for as much hypertrophy as possible. That's not to say that they will change the shape of their muscle/s by using a wide variety of exercises. A muscles shape is determined by it's fibre make up and how they are distributed in a nut shell. To change it's shape you would have to selectively target certain fibres more than others. Can you explain how using a barrgae of exercises will change the shape of a muscle?
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  11. #36
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    using a wide variety of exercise helps efficiently target as many muscle fibres as one can

    ** How so?

    I do 3 sets of barbell curls

    You do 1 set of barbell curls, 1 set of preacher curls, and one set of concentration curls.

    Are you saying that you hit more fibers?
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
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  12. #37
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    I think this is a silly question.

    It's like asking us if we had the same genetics as Arnold and performed the same regimin as him. Would we turn out like him.

    Never gonna happen so why bother asking. It makes no sense??
    I don't think it was silly. It was a theoretical question, and was meant to make a point. Not to mention that I was curious how those on the opposite side of the argument from mine would answer this. I wanted to see just how far apart we are on this topic. For me, it was a "successful" question because it cleared up for me where most of you stand.

    There are no silly questions....

    Oops...sorry Hulk...

  13. #38
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    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    using a wide variety of exercise helps efficiently target as many muscle fibres as one can

    ** How so?

    I do 3 sets of barbell curls

    You do 1 set of barbell curls, 1 set of preacher curls, and one set of concentration curls.

    Are you saying that you hit more fibers?
    Paul, is it your belief that if you do one exercise for chest, like say bench press, that you can hit every fiber if the exercise is done to failure and for multiple sets?

  14. #39
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    It's fact.

    Failure and multiple sets are not a requirement. They don't hurt, but not a requirement.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  15. #40
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    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    It's fact.

    Failure and multiple sets are not a requirement. They don't hurt, but not a requirement.
    Ok, so it is your belief that there is never a need to do an incline anything for chest. You can get complete development from a flat angle.

    Also, do you believe you can get complete development from only one set?

    Finally, do you believe that you do not need to train to failure to get maximum hypertrophy?

  16. #41
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gopro


    Ok, so it is your belief that there is never a need to do an incline anything for chest. You can get complete development from a flat angle.


    I get nice development from flat presses and dips.

    Also, do you believe you can get complete development from only one set?


    No.

    Finally, do you believe that you do not need to train to failure to get maximum hypertrophy?


    I believe it is advantageous on occasion, but not *all* the time.
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  17. #42
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Originally posted by gopro


    Ok, so it is your belief that there is never a need to do an incline anything for chest. You can get complete development from a flat angle.


    I get nice development from flat presses and dips.

    Also, do you believe you can get complete development from only one set?


    No.

    Finally, do you believe that you do not need to train to failure to get maximum hypertrophy?


    I believe it is advantageous on occasion, but not *all* the time.
    OK, Paul...Chris...Maki...what do you guys think?

  18. #43
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Ok, so it is your belief that there is never a need to do an incline anything for chest. You can get complete development from a flat angle.

    ** Not belief. Fact. Yes. Doesn't mean one should not do inclines, there are plenty of reasons to do them. In order to get complete development of the chest, one need not press at all, theoretically, were it possible to adequately overload the pec independant of the strength of the arm/shoulder girdle.

    Also, do you believe you can get complete development from only one set?

    ** Depends. I think the answer to the question is some people can, yes. There is a tradeoff in additional value to an additional set and recovery. I've found an additional set benefits me more than I need that recovery in some instances. This particualar subject touches on more than just muscular contraction - it touches on energy reserves (ATP, glycogen) recovery, goals, etc. Kind of like tryign to determine an optimal TUL for everyone.


    Finally, do you believe that you do not need to train to failure to get maximum hypertrophy?

    ** Believe again? No, I don't 'believe' that to be the case. I have seen nothing to indicate to me it is necessary or that it is optimal, but then I haven't seen anythign showing training sub failure is necessary or optimal. There is a grey area when it comes to defining what would cause the adaptation that leads to hypertrophy, and then reaching that point... as well as the tradeoff again in recovery. You definately need to train 'hard' enough to warrant the adaptation, and the measureable variable is pounds and/or reps. Defining how 'hard' is virtually impossible.. heck, we can't even all agree on a definition of failure.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  19. #44
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    I'll post my thoughts after I wake up from my nap.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  20. #45
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    Ok Maki...waiting for you to awaken...

    Chris, any chance we can hear your view on this?

  21. #46
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Look at the top of this page.

  22. #47
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington

    No, using a wide variety of exercise helps efficiently target as many muscle fibres as one can. This enables one to effectively allow for as much hypertrophy as possible. That's not to say that they will change the shape of their muscle/s by using a wide variety of exercises. A muscles shape is determined by it's fibre make up and how they are distributed. To change it's shape you would have to selectively target certain fibres more than others or more specifically motor units. Can you explain how using a barrage of exercises will change the shape of a muscle?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #48
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    Look at the top of this page.
    Ok, thanks..didn't see your post. Hmmmmm...interesting. There is a tad variation between you, Paul, Maki, and Powerman. Just a tad.

    So, you guys all feel that the millions of bodybuilders in this world are truly wasting their time doing a variety of exercises for each bodypart. Everyone could really just pick one movement for each bodypart and build a competition worthy physique?
    Last edited by gopro; 03-27-2002 at 04:50 PM.

  24. #49
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    You still haven't directly answered my question.
    Where did I say that it only takes one exercise to do the job?
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  25. #50
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    Sorry Maki...I forgot...you see I totally believe you CAN selectively target certain areas of a muscle and its motor units which I further believe will elicit more growth in that area.

    If you didn't believe that on some level you wouldn't bother doing more than one exercise per bodypart. Why ever do an incline press if it does the same or less for chest than bench press. Why do a flye, a cable crossover?

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