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  1. #1
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    Question for the WBB masterminds...

    If you took to identical twins...IDENTICAL in every genetic way...and put them on a weight training program:

    They train exactly the same way for six months. Lets say, 3 days per week on the following program:

    -bench press
    -bent row
    -military press
    -barbell curl
    -skull crusher
    -crunches

    4 sets of each movement, 8-10 reps each, same progess as far as weights and reps, etc

    For the following 6 months one twin stays on the exact same program, but the other one switches to this:

    -bench press
    -incline press
    -military press
    -side lateral
    -barbell curl
    -preacher curl
    -skull crusher
    -overhead dumbell extension
    -crunches
    -reverse crunches

    Overall sets still the same...same rep scheme...both make equal progress in their lifts.

    Everything else being equal, do their physiques look the same at the end of 1 year?

  2. #2
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    With the perfect scenario anything is possible. With bodybuilding and the enviroment, daily stressors etc... that surrounds us the scenario will never be perfect. Thus it is pointless to hypothesize about something that will never happen.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  3. #3
    Always in the Action Severed Ties's Avatar
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    One person is doing bench press the other bench and incline bench etc...are they both doing 4 sets total per bodypart or is one doing 4 and the other 8??

    ST
    "Your bench makes Jesus cry." -Shark

    This is 10% luck, 15% skill, 20% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure and 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name...

  4. #4
    O.K....not really mesmall's Avatar
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    ST....If you are getting ready to say the second guy is over traing with all those extra sets....I agree.
    " Eat to grow, Progression to get stronger " - mesmall

  5. #5
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Depends how good their recovery is. If it's exceptional, the fellow doing incline as well as barbell will likely have better developed shoulders, but an underdeveloped back (since you didn't have the second guy doing any back work). If their recovery was average, the man doing more volume would probably be a bit smaller and weaker, especially in the overtrained body parts. No, their physiques will not look the same. However, if you were to ask if, say, they each grew a chest with the same overall mass, would the shape of the muscle be the same? I would say yes.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    The physique of the 2nd's chest and bi's might be larger, as he's doing more chest and bi work, but other than that, yes, their physiques will look the same I believe.

  7. #7
    bone crusher
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    where are the rows in the second routine

    without working your back you wouldn't get much growth there right?

  8. #8
    Forsaken by Destiny jell999's Avatar
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    Do they sleep the same?
    Eat the same?
    Have the same work environment?
    Live in the same amount of stress?
    Have the same sex life?

    All of these types of things can really affect the gains of these "people."
    Genetics arent tghe only thing that hinders growth.
    I think way too much is blamed on bad genetics.
    Push the envelope/Watch it bend.

  9. #9
    Always in the Action Severed Ties's Avatar
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    Mesmall 8 sets per bodypart once a week would hardly overtrain the second person, infact I would say his growth would be superior.....althought in rereading the way gopro asked the question, I can't tell if they are training each bodypart once a week or 3x a week...if thats the case then yes that would lead to overtraining.

    ST
    "Your bench makes Jesus cry." -Shark

    This is 10% luck, 15% skill, 20% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure and 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name...

  10. #10
    O.K....not really mesmall's Avatar
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    I took it as 3 x week.
    8 sets for chest, tri's, bi's, shoulders and abs....ouch
    Last edited by mesmall; 03-25-2002 at 08:18 PM.
    " Eat to grow, Progression to get stronger " - mesmall

  11. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    The second routine has a total volume of 40 sets.
    For a natty trainee that's a lot of volume.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  12. #12
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Like everybody else said, its going to depend on a lot of factors, BUT assuming the 2nd twin handles the program without burning out and makes gains with it, I don't think you'll see any significant difference between the two, despite the lack of back work.
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  13. #13
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    Ok...first let me clarify a couple of things...
    1- MY SCREW UP...I forgot back in the second routine for the second twin...so, this is what it will look like...

    -bench press
    -incline press
    -bent row
    -seated row CG
    -military press
    -side lateral
    -barbell curl
    -preacher curl
    -skull crusher
    -overhead dumbell extension
    -crunches
    -reverse crunch

    2- They will both be performing the EXACT SAME amount of total set...so, while twin # 1 will be doing 4 sets of each exercise, the second twin will be performing 2 sets of each exercise.

    3- Answer this with ALL other things being equal...rest/diet/supps/lifting speed...absolutely identical except for the slight variation in exercises.

    4- For get about overtraining here. If it makes you feel better, lets say they perform this routine twice per week instead of 3 times. It really doesn't matter for the sake of this question.


    *Now, at the end of one year...would their bodies be identical with this slight alteration in regimen?

  14. #14
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    They'll probably look the same, assuming all else is equal.

    The big determinants of apperance are being held constant.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
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  15. #15
    Always in the Action Severed Ties's Avatar
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    Well we all know you can't shape a muscle so I'd say they would look the same. Over the course of many years I could see their being some difference as only a single exercise gets very stale, but in a six month period they would look the same.

    ST
    "Your bench makes Jesus cry." -Shark

    This is 10% luck, 15% skill, 20% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure and 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember the name...

  16. #16
    Senior Member TerryRay's Avatar
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    The second twin is going to have 'the look' more than the first twin. Overtraining aside he is going to show more actual development, besides, I think you have to do more work than a couple of sets here and there. Its just not going to make it but everybody cries overtraining all the time when in fact it is just laziness.

  17. #17
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Good point.

    Two very advanced trainees who did this, who are both competing on a bodybuilding stage - there *might* be a difference. Might.

    (I'm quite sad to see a lack of squats.)
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  18. #18
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    Sorry about the lack of squats Paul. The completness of the program was not the point, as I'm sure you know. If it make you happy, than add in squats, lol.

    OK, so you guys think they would look the same. I think you are sooooo wrong.

    I think you guys actually believe that you could reach your genetic potential by picking one basic exercise per muscle group and simply increasing weight or reps or both...and that as long as you progress continuously(which is impossible)you will reach the full muscle size and shape your gentics will allow.

    Wow...that is so ludicrous!

  19. #19
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    You said a year, not anything about genetic potential.

    When progress stops, doing something else is a good idea.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  20. #20
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    Even after one year their physiques would be different..no doubt. And as time goes by, it would be more pronounced.

  21. #21
    Wannabebig Member
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    So Gopro, how do you go about training? I mean, there are only so many different exercises. I know for myself, what I have been trying to do say for legs, is to either increase weight on my squats or get a higher amount of reps in every week. Of course, I've only been training about 1 1/2 to 2 years now so I'm still learning how my body adapts and grows.

  22. #22
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    At your stage of the game, I recommend a pool of basic exercises...say 2-3 for each bodypart, that you try to progress in. However, at your level of experience I would occasionally change my rep range, order of exercises, and rep speeds. Cycle a change in your training say every 4 weeks.

    With my training, I change something at every workout. Exercises, reps, intensity techniques, rep speed, TUT, body part grouping, etc. Now, I am very advanced, and a competitor, so I don't recommend as much variation to others unless they are at my level or above.

    I do, however, recommend far more variation than many here do. I also believe in angle changes, grip changes, and different exercises to "shape" a physique to its fullest potential.

  23. #23
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    When you can explain in physiological terms WHY the physiques would be significantly different, we might take you more seriously.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  24. #24
    Simplistic
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    Because of all the hype this subject gets on this forum I decided to ask some of the local competitors in my area what they think about the whole shaping idea. The ones I talked to all agreed that you can shape a muscle to a certain extent within your genetic potential. I have also experienced this in the gym. I am by no means a seasoned veteran but I am also not a beginner. In a matter of weeks I was able to thicken my biceps using a preacher curl machine and I brought out my inner lower triceps BIG TIME doing weighted bench dips. I don't do these exercises anymore because they will not benifit me in my quest for size but if I do ever decide to compete I will take a different approach to my training. The whole shaping idea doesn't apply to 99% of the general training public and I think that's were most newbies go wrong. Even most IFBB pros tell beginners to stick to basic core movements on a 3 to 4 day regimen. I think this forum is the best place on the net for a beginner to come because that is the philosophy everyone takes here. But I think you guys are mistaken on this one.

  25. #25
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    1 billion people believe budda is a supreme being.

    hundreds of millions believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.

    Who's right?

    I don't care what you'believe'. I care about how muscles work.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

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