TITLE SHOULD BE
"Is vertical pulling really necessary (compared to horizontal pulling)"
(got confused with horizontal and vertical pulls, so I got them mixed up)
This is a template I've been using for a few months, and all of lifts are going up steadily except bb rows. I've been doing weighted pull ups on DE BP day, and rows on ME BP.
My question is, it seems like westside really emphasizes on lots of heavy rows and even in Mark Rippetoe's and Bill Starr's routines, pull ups and lat pulldowns are nowhere to be seen (only recommended as optional exercises). This makes me wonder, is vertical pulling really necessary if my concern is being a good bencher/deadlifter/squatter (and military press). Is vertical pulling as important as horizontal pulling? Do you guys put any emphasis on vertical pulling, or just purely focus on heavy rows all the time?
Last edited by MPB; 08-15-2008 at 02:58 PM.
Both - the heavy rows help more with deadlifting and building up the entire back. The pulldowns and pullups are for lats and upperback work, essential for pressing. You might try Pendlay Rows if you want to switch it up.
I think I've heard Mr. Mason saying he doesn't pay that much attention to pull ups, just rows (I could be wrong though), and his back & deadlift are freaky as hell.
Barbell rows being one of my worst lift, is the reason why I want to focus more. Once a week doesn't seem to be enough, and if I rowed hard on both bench days, I wouldn't be able to go as heavy on the pull ups. I just would like to hear what people have to say about vertical pulling exercises and their effectiveness compared to horizontal pulls.
Last edited by MPB; 08-15-2008 at 02:44 PM.
Well, if your competition lifts are going up then I wouldn't worry too much about the rows not going up. Just keep rowing, they must be doing some good if your bench and pull are moving.
Normally I do chins/pullups on DE day and some type of row on max effort day. I just rotate things around to keep it interesting.
Just giving my opinion. I don't believe in neglecting a movement, so I include both.
i thought rowing was horizontal pulling...unless upright row which would be vertical pulling
Me too, but I got the gist of what he was saying
I could've sworn horizontal pushing/pulling meant things like pull ups and oh press
maybe I'm wrong then
EDIT: okay I'm wrong! sorry for the confusion guys, I'll edit my posts.
Last edited by MPB; 08-15-2008 at 02:43 PM.
one of us is backwards.....doesnt matter though.....we know what you mean.
I've heard that your horizontal presses and pulls should be roughly in balance (strength & volume) to protect your shoulders. Vertical and horizontal pulls seem to improve shoulder stability, strength, and health.
I like chins. You can get a good back without them, but no reason not to include them for variety.
AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!
The problem is by the time I'm done with ME bench, I'm too exhausted to do rows and I suspect this might be what's holding back my progress. Moving rows to DE bp, and pull ups to ME bp might make things better. What do you think?
Last edited by MPB; 08-15-2008 at 04:53 PM.
Maybe don't just do barbell rows. Try pendlay, or DB rows for a while. I bet your BB row will go up if you do that. I think the verdict seems to be that you should do vertical and horizontal movements. But if you are experienced enough to really know your body that well, you can go with your instincts.
Last edited by Beefcaker; 04-24-2009 at 09:55 AM.
Yeah, there is no way I could BB row what I can bench. I've never seen somebody who could, to be honest.
I was just talking about balancing the volume between the stresses on the shoulder girdle applied in a horizontal press (e.g., flat bench), and the stresses applied in a horizontal pull (e.g., BB rows with a relatively flat back). I've read, and heard from experienced lifters, that some amount of balance in volume helps protect their shoulders.
and i have heard similar things with athletes like pitchers who need to develop the "brakes" more or less by bringing up the imbalances or the opposite of their throwing muscles, etc.
Do your rows before you bench.
"I PLAY BY MY OWN RULES"
why don't you just try doing a heavy barbell row on ME day and then kroc rows on DE day that way you wont overtax your lowback like someone said and then just add in a few extra workouts of pullups to maintain your verticle strength nothing gut busting just a few easy sets spread out during the week. just my two cents and it's what i'd do. but remember are you rowing to improve a movement or make a muscle stronger i wouldn't worry too much if the row itself isn't going up in leaps and bounds as long as my back wasn't holding me back and my core movements were going up.
I realized I was just worrying too much about something I don't need to, and I've already figured everything out a while ago but thanks for the answers.
I have really really long torso and really short legs so anything I do with normal/close stance taxes the hell out of my lower back. I now do rows with a sumo stance and that works better for me.