The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Its no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Use of Triple Leg Extension in Swimming

    Do you think these guys work on this? I used to be an elite swimmer on a private team (USS), high school, and country club. I did little weight training except maybe Bench Press from time to time. (Which really helped my butterfly explosion outta the water). I qualified for Olympic time trials but that was it. My coach was an elite world swimmer who represented the US in various world competitions but we rarely did any serious weight training. I understand many athletes at the level of World Competition probably have more of a training edge than I did or the average athlete does. But swimming is game of maintaining momentum which comes from the legs and core.

    I was thinking about KB swings and KB snatches and how they make use of double and sometimes triple leg extension. That power you feel when you extend/snap your hips is a very similar feeling to the extension/snap in the butterfly kick which is used in some way in every stroke. I would think that a swimmer would benefit greatly from KB Leg extension movements. Also, the speed/strength development of arms, back and shoulders from the shrugs and pulls that happen in the snatch and CnJ would be additional great for developing what the swimmer needs to get their hands back ahead of them. (for endurance swimmers- long KB swing/snatch/cnj sessions)

    It is given that an athlete can benefit from resistance training of various facets including use of the basic 6 compounds and OLY movements. This is obvious which might make this a moot thread... so this is purely conjecture.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 08-16-2008 at 09:44 AM.
    Sarvamangalam!

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  3. #2
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    Damnit - I responded to the other one, LOL.

  4. #3
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Moore View Post
    Damnit - I responded to the other one, LOL.
    Good point, although once the KB movements are learned the swimmer could easily move that into variations of OLY movements such as a power clean, hang clean and the snatch high pull. This could eliminate a good amount of the technical aspect. What do you think?
    Sarvamangalam!

  5. #4
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think resistance training will do much for a swimmer.


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  6. #5
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    I honestly don't think resistance training will do much for a swimmer.
    Why would it not benefit the athlete to train their weakness? A 50m sprinter would benefit greatly from resistance training- I would think.

    What makes you think what you do?
    Sarvamangalam!

  7. #6
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    Why would it not benefit the athlete to train their weakness? A 50m sprinter would benefit greatly from resistance training- I would think.

    What makes you think what you do?
    I think a swimmer would benefit more from practicing their sport with some form of resistance than using weights. The movements are just too different. Perhaps using something that adds some drag in the pool?


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  8. #7
    Senior Member Ryano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    I honestly don't think resistance training will do much for a swimmer.
    I agree. Seems like adding mucsle mass will do more harm than good for a swimmer. The exception may be the the explosion off the platform with the legs. Look at Mike Phelps. He's long and lean, not Fuscular like a powerlifter.
    Can't wait 'til tomorrow, 'cause I get stronger every day!

  9. #8
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    I saved it for ya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Moore
    The problem you would run into is that most swimmers don't weight train much - you said it yourself. So to take someone who doesn't do it much and try and teach them complex movements like a snatch or a cnj, is going to be a battle.

    That being said, I do think it could have its applications especially with KB's. The endurance under strain alone would be great.


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  10. #9
    mind/body zen's Avatar
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    Now, my question is, why don't swimmers train in a fluid with more viscosity than water where the resistance would be higher?
    I dunno what you would use. Something with the viscosity of molasses or honey would be too high. LOL! Plus cleaning off would suck.
    But if you could find a fluid that is cheap and biochemically inert, but had say 25% more viscosity, couldn't that help you train the same motion dynamics but for better resistance?
    'In order to alter the inertial mass of weights, you must become one with them, like a machine, the totality of your motion is as one'

  11. #10
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    I think a swimmer would benefit more from practicing their sport with some form of resistance than using weights. The movements are just too different. Perhaps using something that adds some drag in the pool?
    We do use various forms of bands and drag mechanisms. First, we wear drag suits over our speedo, sometimes we wear 2-3 before a meet during a taper. We have used belts tied to a big pickle bucket with a small to large hole cut in it. That is some hard swimming. Some of my favorite resistance training was wearing a belt attached to a large band which would give us resistance down the first 25 (during Short Course season). Then we would swim back and the coach would pull like crazy so we could feel what it was like to go faster... it was hella fun.

    Our coach would routinely run us through general fitness circuits, but all of them either mimicked direct swimming movements or directly hit the muscle groups needs in that particular movement style. These include: leg throws, a multitude of core stuff, plyo, stairs, sprints, stair jumps in the stadium stands, med ball stuff etc... A cool part about it was we would do our "dry lands" before the swim and we would go into the basement of the natatorium where the viewing windows lined a huge dark hallway at least the length of a 50 meter pool..duh. Behind the hallway walls was the one light bulb, old rickety weight room where, at the far end through 25meters of darkness was a lit stairwell with a set of double wide stairs that went up to the tallest row of the stands. We ran, jumped, and lunges our way up those stairs quite a bit. Thats all of the "dry land exercises" I remember.

    I do remember that after bench pressing and doing pullups for a while my butterfly got much more powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by zen View Post
    Now, my question is, why don't swimmers train in a fluid with more viscosity than water where the resistance would be higher?
    I dunno what you would use. Something with the viscosity of molasses or honey would be too high. LOL! Plus cleaning off would suck.
    But if you could find a fluid that is cheap and biochemically inert, but had say 25% more viscosity, couldn't that help you train the same motion dynamics but for better resistance?

    Many athletes train in chlorine pools which are more viscous than the salt water pools that are inherent to major natatoriums in the world, such as the ones used in the Olympics and many major private club meets (these are the guys who feed into the US olympic team.) Ages range from young as hell to whenever you decline from your peak. Mine: http://dallasmustangs.com/
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 08-16-2008 at 12:31 PM.
    Sarvamangalam!

  12. #11
    Senior Member Ryano's Avatar
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    They could use a parachute type device like sprinters use. Anything to create more drag. I'd say ask Michael Phelps what he uses. He seems to be doing pretty good. :o)

    Sorry, looks like that's already been suggested. Maybe I should read the all the reply's before I start typing.
    Last edited by Ryano; 08-16-2008 at 12:17 PM.
    Can't wait 'til tomorrow, 'cause I get stronger every day!

  13. #12
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryano View Post
    They could use a parachute type device like sprinters use. Anything to create more drag. I'd say ask Michael Phelps what he uses. He seems to be doing pretty good. :o)
    They do make the chutes too.
    Sarvamangalam!

  14. #13
    mind/body zen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    They do make the chutes too.
    a chute would slow you down... which only means you need to try to find more drive to get your old speed back. I'm not saying that wouldn't help, but higher viscosity would add resistance to every part of every motion.
    'In order to alter the inertial mass of weights, you must become one with them, like a machine, the totality of your motion is as one'

  15. #14
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zen View Post
    a chute would slow you down... which only means you need to try to find more drive to get your old speed back. I'm not saying that wouldn't help, but higher viscosity would add resistance to every part of every motion.
    right, I have never heard of this but it sound like an interesting idea.
    Sarvamangalam!

  16. #15
    sissy Bohizzle's Avatar
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    That french swimmer Alain Bernard is pretty jacked, and I believe he got a gold and silver? or just a silver? Either way, I'm assuming he does some sort of weight training. http://www.ohlalamag.com/photos/unca...rnard21382.jpg

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  17. #16
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohizzle View Post
    That french swimmer Alain Bernard is pretty jacked, and I believe he got a gold and silver? or just a silver? Either way, I'm assuming he does some sort of weight training. http://www.ohlalamag.com/photos/unca...rnard21382.jpg

    Andrew
    looks like it.
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 08-16-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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  18. #17
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    I am sure weight training CAN help. The whole idea is to make pushing the water feel lighter. Resistance in the water itself does work obviously.

    I know from personal experience that because I am A LOT stronger now than i was 2 years ago, things around me just feel lighter. I am sure this applies to swimming. These guys aren't going to get as strong as a normal gym rat perhaps but they will be stronger than if they didn't. With all the cardio they are doing building excessive amounts of muscle (to a point where it would affect performance) would require some serious serious eating.

    High rep stuff would be useless for them, oly lifting may be too complex for them to learn effectively. Powerlifting may help them.
    But really this is all semantics. To be a better swimmer ya gotta keep swimming.

  19. #18
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Swimming is all about stroke efficiency and power. There most definately is a need for resistance training, but most swim coaches are still pretty traditional in their approach to dryland work. It's been a while since I've followed the sport closely, so things might have changed a little, but as far as I can tell, things haven't changed much - there are plenty of exceptions though like Dara Torres, so I think coaches must be coming around.

    Hypertrophy is the enemy for swimmers obviously.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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