The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    High school weight lifting program.

    Hello everyone,this is my first post on the site.My name is Ryan Hale and I used to compete in powerlifting many years ago.
    This seems to be a awesome site with lots of knowledge so I thought this would be a great place to ask a few questions.
    It looks as though I'm going to get a chance to work with the students at our local High School in the weight room.
    Of course the main goal is the bigger/faster/stronger formula.
    I would like to get on a 2 day a week program with the students,with one being our core lifts of dead,squats,and bench.The other day would be our assistance lifts.There is also talk of some of the other coaches to work on speed and agility drills 1-2x a week.
    It sounds as if the weight program will be a morning deal as some of the kids will have practice/jobs after school.

    My main concern of course would be over training for these kids.Do you think 2 days a week on the above mentioned is too much??

    Your honest opinions on the pro's/cons of a good solid powerlifting weight program for these kids and their future in sports??

    And do you think a powerlifting program would benefit basketball,baseball,wrestling,volleyball,etc-not just football.

    I know how I feel about powerlifting and the awesome results you can get from a program of this type.But I would like to present the results of my questions to the staff and faculty at the school.

    Thanks so much for your help guys-bunch of straight up animals on this site.

    Take care everyone,

    Ryan Hale
    Last edited by Ryan Hale; 10-16-2008 at 07:37 AM.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I think a lot of your students will be well served with a basic powerlifting program. Some would not.

    2x/week sounds fine. I don't know how feasible it is to get kids in 3x/week, but if it's possible, I'd try to do that. If other coaches are going to just beat the kids into the ground w. plyos in their days away from the weight room, you'll have to plan around that - otherwise the kids are going suffer.

    There are a few links here that might be of interest to you: http://johnnymnemonic.proboards44.co...play&thread=50
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  4. #3
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    Thanks you so much for your help.Lots of great info.

    Ryan Hale

  5. #4
    ANVIL POWER Detard's Avatar
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    Coming from a highschool student's point of view, heres mine.

    Most of the kids that are in the weight room WANT to be there. If I had a coach design a program for me, I would want to be lifting 3 days a week. Monday, wednesday, friday.

    I had a program designed for me by Matt Rhodes which I ended up taping to the wall in the weight room so I wouldnt have to bring a piece of paper with me each time. After about 3-4 months, there were more than 30 guys following the exact same routine (obviously with more bicep and ab work ). The routine was this:

    ME Squat (Close-stance Box Squat, Free Squat, Box Squat)1-5RM
    DL, DL Variation to 1-3RM GM's to 3-5RM
    Low Back 4x10
    Abs 4x10

    ME Bench (Bench, Floor Press, Incline, 2 Board) 1-3RM
    4-5 Board 1-5RM
    Rows 4x10
    Lats 4x10
    Biceps - whatever

    DE Squat 6-8x2@50%, 55%, 60%
    GM's or Pulls (whatever you didn't do on ME Day) 3-5RM
    Leg Press 4x10
    Abs 4x10

    DE Bench 6-8x3@50%, 55%, 60%
    Military Press 4x10
    Rows 4x10
    Rear Delts 4x10
    Triceps - whatever


    I have been on this program for 10 months now and my lifts have gone from: squat-275 to 405, bench-170 to 255, deadlift-315 to 418. I put on 30lbs in that time too. I know other kids made some huge gains too.
    w:225lbs. h:5'10.
    630/385/545/1560
    Journal | Vids

    "im ready for the ladies too, my stomach has never been bigger and ive never been hairier." - Stumprrp

    TJW

  6. #5
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    what school in iowa?

  7. #6
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  8. #7
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    I would suggest the same thing. You may want to tailor the program to different position groups. For instance, on the line, your ME work would rotate military press, CGBP, and regular bench. That wouldn't work for a QB whose ME work would be rows, pullups, etc. However, the program is awesome as a basic template.

  9. #8
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    Pressure,

    South O'Brien in Nw Iowa.

    I'm kinda huge believer that there is no better all around exercise for us than squats.Over the years I've noticed most people avoid them like they are a plague.
    We have two squat racks in the gym,in which someone has welded the stop/spotter bars so the kids are only doing 3/4 squats.WTF???? Plus the pads that are tapped on the bars so the kids have not had the bar touching their backs.
    Had 5 kids show up this morning(first day of new program).We squated outside the racks of course.Working on form and getting down lower on their sqauts.One kid was gone after a couple squats with bar only.He had been squatting inside the cage,going only 3/4 down.He in no way wanted to go any lower than this,and was gone quickly. Thoughts here guys???
    The deads,bench went great,and will work cleans in a couple weeks.
    Asst. exercise's once a week.

    1) What is your stretching program? Before/after?I had the kids so some basic stretching before the start.They were really tight,heck I'm 41 and could move better than these 14-15 year old kids.
    Would you stick to stretching? Or would you have them run a few laps before the lifting started? The reason I ask this the head coach thought it might be better for the kids to warm up by running first?? Me,I like to stretch.In the Army we always started PT with lots/lots of stretching,and you rarely ever had pulls/strains.
    2)Military/barebell press.
    Do you guys prefer standing/or seated? I've always done them while seated to keep it all shoulders.I've saw kids bending and using more legs to get weight up on these when standing.

    Thanks for the help and advice guys.

    Ryan Hale
    Last edited by Ryan Hale; 11-04-2008 at 09:53 AM.

  10. #9
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    Something you could do to get the kids interested in squats, convince them of their value, etc., is to print and tape up pics of guys doing big squats. There are some great shots of guys doing big squats w/ chains, bands, etc that might catch the kids' eyes.

    As for preworkout stretching, I think the preworkout goal should basically be getting the blood flowing, getting a little sweat going, so the joints are warmed up. Static stretching before lifting has been shown to inhibit strength. Stretching afterwards is helpful though. In contrast to traditional static stretching, you can do mobility stuff and dynamic movements (moving the hips and shoulders around, getting limber). IIRC, that has been shown to be helpful prior to lifting.

    As for whether powerlifting would be helpful to all the athletes, I have no experience in the area but as far as I know, all athletic qualities have their basis in strength. IOW, strength is the precursor to an athlete's ability to successfully express other athletic qualities (e.g., accelerating, decelerating, power, changing direction, etc.). So, I'd argue a strong, balanced athlete with muscular control will be a better athlete, regardless of the sport, provided they have sufficient sport-specific training as well (e.g., if you can't swing a bat, it doesn't matter that you bench press 400).

  11. #10
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    Brad,

    Thanks you for your thoughts/advice.Keep em coming guys.

    Ryan Hale

  12. #11
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Ryan,

    I just shot you a PM.

    Boris
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  13. #12
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    Just out of interest, what does the routine look like now? My sister's a teacher and at her last school, another teacher ran a weights session in which he'd coach willing pupils a couple times a week. Be interesting to find out what he did and compare. I bet they didn't do cleans though! Man, they're some lucky kids learning to do proper power cleans at 14, you're definitely setting them on the right path.

    Is this something just for those that want to lift weights, or are you also helping out the individual sports coaches? I mean if you're good at what you do then I could see you designing programs for the various teams, rather than just having two lifting days for everybody. Just intrigued to know how it works there.

    I think for 14-15yr old kids a 2x week program is probably fine, I imagine you're mostly getting them to work with proper technique more than anything at first so it might be a case where less is more. When I rowed at school, we did a very abbreviated weights routine because we spent so much time doing other training, but it still worked.

  14. #13
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    Boris,

    Thanks for the PM,replied back.

    Drummer.
    Here is the deal,our varsity football team went 1-8 this year.We have a new coach who knows changes need to take place.I approached the staff and asked them if they wanted help.I have 3 boys,2 which play ball,younger one will some day.
    In the past the kids show up, mark down they were in the weight room,simple as that.Never has the weight room been opened in the mornings for the kids,just in the afternoon and summers.I'm going in the mornings now and hauled 4 kids with me today(10 miles away).What I saw from the kids that weren't in my group today was more or less doing pec decks,bench press-things they wanted to do and were fun of course.I've talked with 4-5 of the coaches in person and things will move forward.
    What they have used in the past is the NU program,which I'm sure lots of school use,and have used for years.Basic pyramid system with %,like most programs.
    My biggest problem is in the equipment,and how these kids think things are supposed to be.Like I say,both squat racks have welded stops so kids are only going down a little ways.I said 3/4,but needed to say 1/4 squats.Why in the world would anyone weld stops in squat racks is beyond me?
    I'm far from a pro,but do have lots of gym time.There are some really good trainers and lifters on this site.It helps me to ask questions of them,so I can present other ideas-not just mine to the staff.
    Lots of ideas here,new paint in weight room,some banners,some motivational sayings,max charts so kids can see their progress-this all needs to happen.
    Most of these kids play basketball,football,wrestling,track.
    Be also nice to see some of the girls make it in,there has been zero mention of this.
    I really think a new/re-vamped program with someone in the gym thats knows on how to move weight would be a big plus.
    We are a very small school with limited funding.

    Thanks for all the feedback here.

    Ryan Hale
    Last edited by Ryan Hale; 11-04-2008 at 03:30 PM.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Hale View Post
    Pressure,

    South O'Brien in Nw Iowa.

    I'm kinda huge believer that there is no better all around exercise for us than squats.Over the years I've noticed most people avoid them like they are a plague.
    We have two squat racks in the gym,in which someone has welded the stop/spotter bars so the kids are only doing 3/4 squats.WTF???? Plus the pads that are tapped on the bars so the kids have not had the bar touching their backs.
    Had 5 kids show up this morning(first day of new program).We squated outside the racks of course.Working on form and getting down lower on their sqauts.One kid was gone after a couple squats with bar only.He had been squatting inside the cage,going only 3/4 down.He in no way wanted to go any lower than this,and was gone quickly. Thoughts here guys???
    The deads,bench went great,and will work cleans in a couple weeks.
    Asst. exercise's once a week.

    1) What is your stretching program? Before/after?I had the kids so some basic stretching before the start.They were really tight,heck I'm 41 and could move better than these 14-15 year old kids.
    Would you stick to stretching? Or would you have them run a few laps before the lifting started? The reason I ask this the head coach thought it might be better for the kids to warm up by running first?? Me,I like to stretch.In the Army we always started PT with lots/lots of stretching,and you rarely ever had pulls/strains.
    2)Military/barebell press.
    Do you guys prefer standing/or seated? I've always done them while seated to keep it all shoulders.I've saw kids bending and using more legs to get weight up on these when standing.

    Thanks for the help and advice guys.

    Ryan Hale

    I like to do a brief warmup on the treadmill or elliptical. From there, I do DeFranco's Agile 8 if its a lower body day or Spectacular 6 if it is an upper body day. Those seem to be pretty good mobility programs (although I had leg swings and arm swings respectively) i that they are simple and easily repatable which I think is important for kids.

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