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Thread: Trying to understand shirts and suits

  1. #26
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    And there is a tinge of bias in your post towards not liking gear. This subject is pointless. They have raw records and feds and they have geared records and feds. Figure out which one you want to do and do it. But don't bash one or the other if you've never set foot in that realm of competition

  2. #27
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post

    I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.
    Yes, that was basically what I was asking.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport.
    Incredible. Simply incredible. None of that crap is required to do anything.

    Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.
    Are technologically advanced barbells cheating?

    I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place?
    Because it helps. Teh same way some brilliant rocket scientist discovered that a helmet kinda helps when playing American football.

    The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength.
    do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounds?? I mean, it's hard to even fathom how to respond to this. Technique is ALWAYS IMPORTANT AND ALWAYS WILL BE. Are raw lifters using too much technique when they squat deep with a high-bar position and bounce out of the hole?? Strength and technique go hand in hand in powerlifting.

    I suppose you think a true powerlifting meet, a true test of strength, would have a bunch of bare-naked guys lifting tree trunks and rocks? Anything else would be too much technique and not a true test of manly strength?

    It's all about lines, and where you draw them. If you're in a sport that allows cleats, helmets, bench shirts, wraps, whatever, then you're following the rules. There is no Platonic form of "the perfect sport of powerlifting." You use the technique and equipment allowed by the rules. Plain and simple.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Yes, but you're forgetting, skates, pads, face shileds, swim suits, etc, are all required for their sport. Of course they're gonna make the most technologically advanced skates they can, why not.

    I think the whole point of this thread is, why did gear become popular in the first place? Our sport is all about pure raw strength, or it began that way. There's really no reason to wear a suit or shirt when you think about it. The way gear is now a days it seems like technique is almost more important than pure strength. Really, what's the point in throwing on a bench shirt that'll help you squeeze out another 100 lbs when you know you can't lift that weight by yourself? Sure they're gonna make more advanced swimming suits, when he hell does anybody swim without a suit on? Do you understand my logic? I'm not really trying to bash gear, but I think a lot of people don't understand how it even got started.

    I understand your logic, and it started with bed sheets and full body wraps.

    Technique is important weather you are geard or raw. You lift more weight with good technique, and you stay healthier and can lift/compete more, plain and simple.

    Are face shields part of the game? No they aren't. They started without helmets. Sticks were curved and goalies were banned from dropping to their knees. The sports started adding more equipment and play excalated because injuries were less frequent. Hell goalies didn't even wear masks. That wasn't part of the game. They started wearing masks when players brought in curved sticks and started getting better equipment. They now have helmets and throat guards and have no qualms putting their face in front of a 100 MPH shot. Is that not a distinct change? Does it not drastically change the way the game is played? Sports evolve, this is how ours evolving.
    Last edited by Reko; 11-18-2008 at 09:17 AM.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post
    Incredible. Simply incredible. None of that crap is required to do anything.



    Are technologically advanced barbells cheating?



    Because it helps. Teh same way some brilliant rocket scientist discovered that a helmet kinda helps when playing American football.



    do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounds?? I mean, it's hard to even fathom how to respond to this. Technique is ALWAYS IMPORTANT AND ALWAYS WILL BE. Are raw lifters using too much technique when they squat deep with a high-bar position and bounce out of the hole?? Strength and technique go hand in hand in powerlifting.

    I suppose you think a true powerlifting meet, a true test of strength, would have a bunch of bare-naked guys lifting tree trunks and rocks? Anything else would be too much technique and not a true test of manly strength?

    It's all about lines, and where you draw them. If you're in a sport that allows cleats, helmets, bench shirts, wraps, whatever, then you're following the rules. There is no Platonic form of "the perfect sport of powerlifting." You use the technique and equipment allowed by the rules. Plain and simple.
    Skates aren't required to skate? Lol... Pads and shields are for safety. Bench shirts and squat suites make thinks way more dangerous because of the extreme weight.

    Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.

    Helmets in football? Again, safety. Would you really want to play football without a helmit?

    How does technique sound stupid? How many guys completely bomb out of meets because they can't get a shirt to touch? I didn't meen lifting technique in general, I meant the technique required to use the gear. Seriusly, how often do guys miss raw lifts simply because of technique issues.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post

    Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.

    Helmets in football? Again, safety. Would you really want to play football without a helmit?
    Everyone in the meet can use the same shirt if they want. Just like every baseball player can use the same bat or every hockey player the same stick or skate.

    And, they played football for many years with no helmets. Ever watched a rugby game?

  7. #32
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reko View Post
    Everyone in the meet can use the same shirt if they want. Just like every baseball player can use the same bat or every hockey player the same stick or skate.

    And, they played football for many years with no helmets. Ever watched a rugby game?
    Yes, I've actually played rugby, it's much different than football.

    My only concern is, everybody doesn't use the same equipment in pl, unlike almost every other sport. There is no set standard. Some feds allow single ply, some feds allow multi-play, some are raw. Human strength can only go so far, after a certian point you can't deny that gear technology has made a huge difference in the past few years. Look at bench/squat records compared to deadlift.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Skates aren't required to skate? Lol... Pads and shields are for safety. Bench shirts and squat suites make thinks way more dangerous because of the extreme weight.
    Barbells aren't required to lift weights, they just make it easier. And the rules allow them. So you follow the rules. And if those rules allow knee wraps, you can use them too. And if the rules allow bench shirts, you can use those too. And if your sport allows metal bats instead of wooden ones, guess what? You can use those too, and we still call it baseball.

    Technologically advanced barbells. When everybody at a meet is using the same barbell why would this matter? And even so, just how much is a different barbelly really gonna help your lift.
    **** you're dense.

    Seriusly, how often do guys miss raw lifts simply because of technique issues.
    I am at a loss for words. Truly. One of the rare times it's ever happened to me. I just don't know what to say. Just, wow.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post
    Barbells aren't required to lift weights, they just make it easier. And the rules allow them. So you follow the rules. And if those rules allow knee wraps, you can use them too. And if the rules allow bench shirts, you can use those too. And if your sport allows metal bats instead of wooden ones, guess what? You can use those too, and we still call it baseball.



    **** you're dense.



    I am at a loss for words. Truly. One of the rare times it's ever happened to me. I just don't know what to say. Just, wow.
    Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.

    Of course most people competing will use whatever the rules allow. People in the sport are also the ones making the rules. That doesn't meen everybody agrees with the rules. What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is? Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?

    Lets just agree to disagree when it comes to gear. There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.
    Last edited by Invain; 11-18-2008 at 09:37 AM.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  10. #35
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    Honestly, I don't see why this debate always turns to hostility. If you want to lift raw, find a federation with a raw division and lift raw. If you want to lift equipped, lift equipped. Lifting raw and equipped are both equally powerlifting, and IMHO neither side should be saying their view is better than the other.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.

    Of course most people competing will use whatever the rules allow. People in the sport are also the ones making the rules. That doesn't meen everybody agrees with the rules. What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is? Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?

    Lets just agree to disagree when it comes to gear. There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.

    The people in the sport have made feds that don't allow gear if thats what you want. It's an option to compete in it if that is your thing. They have the option to wear the same shirt and wraps if they want. Some people work better with certain gear than others, depending on their strengths and weakness and groves, which is very individualistic, like a stiff stick or a flexible stick in hockey.

    So, if you are anti gear or hesitant about it, you can compete in a raw fed. If you like it and want to use it, or even just want to use a shirt only and squat raw or DL raw you can compete in a geared fed (and I have done somethign like that before). If I insist on using a wodden bat when the other players are using aluminum, no one will stop me, but I will be at a disadvantage at my discretion.

    As far as the deadlift goes, that is just how it is. Gear doesn't help the DL as much as it does a squat or bench. No claim was made that it doesn't increase your lifts, so I don't really know what that comment was supposed to mean. If it decreased your lift less than your raw lift, no one would use it.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTallOx View Post
    Honestly, I don't see why this debate always turns to hostility. If you want to lift raw, find a federation with a raw division and lift raw. If you want to lift equipped, lift equipped. Lifting raw and equipped are both equally powerlifting, and IMHO neither side should be saying their view is better than the other.
    It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

    As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

    As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.
    If that's the case its more popular then as its drawing more lifters, hence the increased demand for it. You can always do unsanctioned meets or run your own.

  14. #39
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Invain, have you ever competed? Thats a serious question, not meant to be an insult.


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  15. #40
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Yes I have. I plan on lifting in an APF meet in Janurary as well.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Why are you at a loss for words? It's the truth, and many people have brought that point up before.
    Raw lifter misses a squat.

    Weight too far forward on foot. Technique?

    Lower back loses arch. Technique?

    Upper back crumples. Technique?

    Lifter falls forward. Technique?

    Knee caves in. Technique?

    Lifter's torso twists and right hip comes forward. Technique?

    Lifter gets pinned to the floor. Technique?

    Lifter can't get past sticking point. Technique?

    ....

    You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.

    What do you think the general publics view on powerlifting is?
    I didn't know the general public had reached a view on powerlifting.

    Why isn't the sport taken more seriously outside of people that actually compete?
    Raw powerlifting still exists. Is it more popular or taken more seriously? Was powerlifting magically popular before gear was invented? I don't know, but I just saw Scott Mendelsonn in a Harley Davidson commercial, benching a motorcyle in an open-backed shirt, broadcast during a widely-watched television program. Popularity has to do with a gazillion things. Olympic lifting doesn't use any gear and it isn't popular at all in the U.S. There are a gazillion factors influencing the American public and advertising revenue. To reduce it to some silly bifurcated "gear or no gear" analysis based on your bias and (limited) intellect is beyond inept.

    There's no point in calling me dense, it's actually quite ironic.
    No, it's not at all. It's actually insanely poignant given the continuous gems falling from your mouth on the sport of powerlifting and it's state in American culture.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.
    Well, depending on your reason for competition, you could lift raw in an equipped division. If that was my only option, I'd do it, since the only person I'm competing against is myself. But that's just me, and I understand everybody else may have different reasons for competing.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post

    You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.
    I'm not complaining? I stated the obvious. You know exactly what I meant and you're twisting everything to side-step the issue. Not hitting your groove with a shirt on is different than missing a raw bench. Most people miss raw lifts because it's simply too heavy. I'd say it's pretty rare for a raw lifter to bomb all 3 attempts.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  19. #44
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTallOx View Post
    Well, depending on your reason for competition, you could lift raw in an equipped division. If that was my only option, I'd do it, since the only person I'm competing against is myself. But that's just me, and I understand everybody else may have different reasons for competing.
    I have.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post
    You complaining that "technique is almost more important than pure strength" in geared powerlifting, and somehow it isn't in raw lifting, is just mindboggling.
    I've got to agree with that. The first time I benched with my powerlifting buddies, my bench ( raw ) was up 20 pounds just because the techniques they taught me.

    Technique is very important lifting both raw and equipped. I haven't done much lifting with gear, but from my understanding gear can prevent injuries, and thus it seems to me that technique may be more important when lifting raw because technique is the only thing keeping you from getting hurt.

  21. #46
    SFW! drew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

    As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.
    A lot of the feds have a raw division now. It's getting to be popular.

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  22. #47
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    I feel a lot safer with heavy weights in my equipment. My hips don't ache, my knees don't feel like they will cave in and my shoulders are kept nice and tight.

    Despite the weight that I get out my gear there is still a huge safety factor for me. IMO the injuries that occur in full gear are generally caused by a combination of bad dumps and poor spotting. I have thrown 350lbs straight towards my face in my bench shirt but the spotters caught it and I wasn't hurt. I've never finished (or missed) a bench in my shirt that made my shoulder hurt. I have however benched near raw maxes that made my pec insertion hurt for weeks.

    If you're going to tear your quad/hamstring/pec/bicep or whatever, it would probably still happen without the equipment. In fact, I'd be inclined to say it would be more likely because you don't have anything keeping you tight throughout the lift.
    Last edited by deeder; 11-18-2008 at 10:28 AM.
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    Bench - 374lbs -- 170kg -- Dec 20, '08 (@100kg class)
    Dead - 589lbs -- 267.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @100kg class)
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  23. #48
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    You can lift raw at any meet you go to. They don't require the use of gear...

    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    It shouldn't have to turn into hostility, however this seems impossible for some.

    As for lifting raw, there's way more equipped feds than raw. For somebody not willing/can't afford to travel to other states for meets it's actually pretty difficult finding a raw meet.

  24. #49
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Moore View Post
    You can lift raw at any meet you go to. They don't require the use of gear...
    Exactly. I did my first 4 meets using knee wraps and a belt. The 4th one was CPU Nationals 2007 and I placed 2nd in the Junior 75kg weight class.
    Full Powerlifting
    Squat - 595lbs -- 270kg -- Dec. 31, '09 (Provincial Record @100kg class)
    Bench - 374lbs -- 170kg -- Dec 20, '08 (@100kg class)
    Dead - 589lbs -- 267.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @100kg class)
    Total: 1537lbs -- 697.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)
    Bench Only -- 358lbs -- 162.5kg -- Nov. 25, '07 (Provincial Record @ 90kg class)
    Bench Only -- 376lbs -- 171kg -- Jan. 26, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)

  25. #50
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    I have.
    then whats the problem?

    I fail to see what your point is in posting here besides bashing gear.

    You have meets to lift in, you've lifted raw, nobody stuck a gun in your face and made you put on a shirt, so whats the problem?

    Some of us lift in gear, some of us do both in gear and out of gear.

    To me the excuse that you don't like gear because its very technical is a lazy excuse for poor form. Benching in a shirt has made me a better raw lifter. Some of the best raw lifters also lift in gear. Rob Wilkerson (KingKong) and Ryan Celli are two good examples and whats funny to me is that you don't hear the guys at the top of EITHER group complaining about the other.


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