The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Wannabebig New Member
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    Bench press reps

    hello all,

    I was wondering what you guys thought of this idea.

    If my max is 235 unassisted. Would it be a bad idea to put say 245 on the bench press and have a spotter help me get 3-4 reps? i was thinking three reps. Wouldn't this be simlair to a negative rep but would would attempt to get the rep anyways.

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  3. #2
    The King of Crash jtrink's Avatar
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    eat more and it will go up.

  4. #3
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    There are a million ways to skin a cat. Doing what you've described isn't real common, but negatives build strength. Give it a shot.

  5. #4
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    It's really not the best way to go about it, but I'm not gonna stop you. I hope you have a trustworthy spotter, though.
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  6. #5
    Squat Heavy, Squat Often Cards's Avatar
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    There was a thread last week that said negatives shouldn't be used. I find progress with the bench press is very slow compaired to other exercises.
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  7. #6
    Wannabebig Member
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    I am no expert, but I think you'd be better off getting more reps in with a weight you can handle. After your warm-up sets, take every weight you lift to failure. You'll need a spotter, but you'll get stronger.

  8. #7
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    [QUOTE=Cards;2081391]There was a thread last week that said negatives shouldn't be used. QUOTE]

    Cards,

    Eccentric movement (netative) provides a great training effect. The problem is that many do not understand the value of negatives, their role in movement. and how to write them in to a training program.

    Eccentric strength is your "brakes". It allows you to stop, slow down and change direction quickly (agility).

    Eccentric strength plays a vital role in determining how much you bench press, squat, jumping, running, etc.

    A great research article on it is Warren Frost's, "Eccentric movements: Description, definition and designing programmes" http://www.strengthandconditioning.o...20Training.pdf

    Kenny Croxdale
    Last edited by Kenny Croxdale; 01-29-2009 at 09:42 AM.

  9. #8
    Senior Member bill's Avatar
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    More important is what have you been doing? Do have a solid program that has been working? If not find a proven one and stick to it (if only I could do that ha ha).
    Remember, to get big, you have to get strong. The two are interconnected. Lift heavy, work hard, and size will come. Like night follows day. It works. Arnold
    Do work son. Big Black (Rob and Big)

  10. #9
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    I'd get a couple spotters if you plan to do this.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cards View Post
    There was a thread last week that said negatives shouldn't be used. I find progress with the bench press is very slow compaired to other exercises.
    Amen to this...

    Once you get to a relatively heavy weight for your body weight it takes at least 2 weeks to go up 5 pounds on a 5x5. Most of the time it is 3 weeks for me. Once you hit around 250 on you're 5x5, you will see how long it takes to move up . Squats and deadlifts are easy to move up 5 pounds/week. Sometimes 10.

  12. #11
    Squat Heavy, Squat Often Cards's Avatar
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    most injuries are caused from eccentric movements. you're putting extreme force in the opposite direct the muscle is contracting.
    Last edited by Cards; 01-30-2009 at 09:01 PM.
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  13. #12
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARCP13 View Post
    hello all,

    I was wondering what you guys thought of this idea.

    If my max is 235 unassisted. Would it be a bad idea to put say 245 on the bench press and have a spotter help me get 3-4 reps? i was thinking three reps. Wouldn't this be simlair to a negative rep but would would attempt to get the rep anyways.
    Nope. Not a good idea. similar to hoping that if your training partner does more reps, that you will be the one who gets stronger.

    I'd stick with good ol' fashioned work


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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cards View Post
    most injuries are caused from eccentric movements. you're putting extreme force in the opposite direct the muscle is contracting.
    Cards,

    Where do you get "most injuries are caused from eccentric movements"? Precisely, what data do you have to support that.

    Certainly eccentrics do place more extreme force in the opposite direction. That is the nature of movement.

    Research shows that a runner produces 3-5 times their body weight when running. Thus a 200 lb athlete will encounter 600-1000 lb of force.

    Research shows that the eccentric force of a bar when when pressing will increase 12% with great bench pressers and up to 49% with novice lifters.

    An athlete need to implement some eccentric/negative only training into their program, at some point, to increase their strength, running speed and jumping ability. Ten percent of the Russian athletes program involved eccentric only training.

    I provided you (the group) with an excellent reseach article on eccentrics in my post above.

    The article goes into the negative of "netatives" and the positive of "negatives".

    A great article on depth jumps (ballistic eccentric training) for high jumpers is David Kerin's "What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains specific to the demands of jumping events?" http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/news010203.pdf

    Kerin's research article shows that the best high jumpers are those with the greaatest amount of eccentric strength.

    By learning to minimize the negative of "negatives" and accentuate the positive of "negatives", you will become stronger.

    Kenny Croxdale

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Nope. Not a good idea. similar to hoping that if your training partner does more reps, that you will be the one who gets stronger.

    I'd stick with good ol' fashioned work
    Travis,

    There is a place in one's program for this "Force Reps". It does provide an overloading effect.

    As you noted, it not effective if a lifter relies on their spotter for assistance during most of the lift.

    Also, "Force Reps" are very demanding, taxing your recovery systems. The should be used infrequently, not too often.

    Kenny Croxdale

  16. #15
    Squat Heavy, Squat Often Cards's Avatar
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    I refuse to spend looking up research to prove a point to you kenny. While you contain a wealth of knowledge I'm looking at this from a relational stand point. A muscle can contract while bearing a load it can handle, if the force of the muscle cannot bear the load, you cannot lift the weight. An eccentric movement produces FAR greater force then a concentric movement. Now take a weight your body is not capable of lifting and pair it with the force of an eccentric movement and all i see is an injury waiting to happen.

    for an advanced lifter, sure why not...I'm sure they will take the proper step to ensure safety. for an intermediate i'm with travis, go the old fashion way.
    Last edited by Cards; 01-31-2009 at 09:25 AM.
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  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cards View Post
    I refuse to spend looking up research to prove a point to you kenny. While you contain a wealth of knowledge I'm looking at this from a relational stand point. A muscle can contract while bearing a load it can handle, if the force of the muscle cannot bear the load, you cannot lift the weight. An eccentric movement produces FAR greater force then a concentric movement. Now take a weight your body is not capable of lifting and pair it with the force of an eccentric movement and all i see is an injury waiting to happen.

    for an advanced lifter, sure why not...I'm sure they will take the proper step to ensure safety. for an intermediate i'm with travis, go the old fashion way.
    Cards,

    You provide some good information. However, not being able to provide something to back up you statement doesn't lend much credibilty to it.

    I provided you with some a great research article on eccentrics. If you'll review it, you'll find that it does support some of but not all of your thinking on it.

    The primary problem is that the majority of athletes/lifters are "clueless" on how to write and perform a good eccentric training program. This applies to novice and elite athletes.

    Kenny Croxdale
    Last edited by Kenny Croxdale; 02-02-2009 at 08:40 AM.

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARCP13 View Post
    hello all,

    I was wondering what you guys thought of this idea.

    If my max is 235 unassisted. Would it be a bad idea to put say 245 on the bench press and have a spotter help me get 3-4 reps? i was thinking three reps. Wouldn't this be simlair to a negative rep but would would attempt to get the rep anyways.
    AARCP,

    Here is another alternative for you. "Force Reps" bascially provides more overload throughout the entire range of the movement. It is somewhat akin to "accommodating resistance" (bands/chains or both).

    "Accommodating resistance" allows you to basically provide more resistance as you ascend. Thus, you provide more overload to your sticking point.

    Give it a try.

    Kenny Croxdale

  19. #18
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    Kenny, do you have any research that shows novices should utilize negatives instead of other training methods?

    Cards wrote:

    "A muscle can contract while bearing a load it can handle, if the force of the muscle cannot bear the load, you cannot lift the weight. An eccentric movement produces FAR greater force then a concentric movement. Now take a weight your body is not capable of lifting and pair it with the force of an eccentric movement and all i see is an injury waiting to happen."

    Cards, the thing you might be missing is that, IIRC, muscles are stronger on the eccentric, therefore you can physically handle more weight on the negative. I don't know if this increases injury potential or not but I tend to agree with you that it's not smart, esp. for novices.
    Last edited by Brad08; 02-02-2009 at 09:10 AM.

  20. #19
    Squat Heavy, Squat Often Cards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post
    Kenny, do you have any research that shows novices should utilize negatives instead of other training methods?

    Cards wrote:

    "A muscle can contract while bearing a load it can handle, if the force of the muscle cannot bear the load, you cannot lift the weight. An eccentric movement produces FAR greater force then a concentric movement. Now take a weight your body is not capable of lifting and pair it with the force of an eccentric movement and all i see is an injury waiting to happen."

    Cards, the thing you might be missing is that, IIRC, muscles are stronger on the eccentric, therefore you can physically handle more weight on the negative. I don't know if this increases injury potential or not but I tend to agree with you that it's not smart, esp. for novices.
    I guess I'm taking into account that he's also trying to press the weight instead of lowering it in a controlled fashion, which may not be the case. In the end we all agree that's it's not smart for novices.
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  21. #20
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    [QUOTE=Brad08;2083453]Kenny, do you have any research that shows novices should utilize negatives instead of other training methods?QUOTE]

    Brad,

    Eccentric/negatives should not be utilized "instead of other training method". They should be employed along with other training methods, as long as one has some understanding of how to implement them in to a training program.

    Jay Schroeder (Strength Coach) stated basically eccentrics are the foundation of his program. "You have to learn to absorb force before you can repel it." ("Freak of Traiing"--Schroeder DVD) Schroeder implements some eccentric strength training into a novice athletes program.

    "You have walk before you can run," applies very directly to eccentric training for novice/beginners. That in part has to do with a childs, as well as a novice athlete/lifter eccentric strength.

    Research shows that the impact force from walking is 1.5 times you bodyweight. Running produces impact force of 3-5 times you body weight.

    If an individual does not possess the eccentric strength to absorb 1.5 times their body weight in walking, how are they going to absorb 3-5 times the impact force in running. As with eveything, there progression process.

    That holds true with novice athletes/lifter, as well. Slowly, work in some eccentric only training into an athlete/lifters program.

    The Soviets found programs in which 10% of their training time was spend on eccentric trainng, produced the best results. (Soviet Secretes/Yessis)
    That due to the demands place on the body by eccentrics.

    However, the majority of athletes/lifters don't know how implement a eccentric strength training program. And they don't care to take the time to educate themselves. They end up starting out with loads that are too heavy that can cause injury and decreases rather than increases their oveall strength.

    That statement is true about programs the focus on concentric strength. Too many athletes/lifters start out with loads the are too heavy for them. By doing so, they are more prone to injury and insure a decrease rather than and increase in strength.

    Warren Frost article (listed in a previouos post) provides some great information on how to minimize the negatives and accentuate the positives of eccentrics training.

    Eccentric training (any training for that matter) is like having a loaded gun. You might want to learn where the safety is on it and how to use it.

    Kenny Croxdale

  22. #21
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    That's interesting, Kenny.

    Would you agree though that eccentric training in a novice's schedule out to be carefully planned and supervised?

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad08 View Post
    That's interesting, Kenny.

    Would you agree though that eccentric training in a novice's schedule out to be carefully planned and supervised?
    Brad,

    Everything in a novice's workout plan should be carefully planned and supervised. They don't know what they are doing.

    Kenny Croxdale

  24. #23
    phil 4:13 Bako Lifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge Sanchez View Post
    I'd get a couple spotters if you plan to do this.
    Don't, because you can't control how much each is assisting and it'll probably distribute the weight unevenly.

    Don't make this a regular part of your routine, it burns out ur cns faster than actual reps. But it's a good thing to throw in every once in a while imo.

  25. #24
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    If you watch runners especially sprinters in slow motion you will notice that the leg is extended when the foot strikes the ground. The knee flexes prior to extending, this means that the primary action of the quadriceps during sprinting is eccentric contraction. Eccentric contraction is at the heart of all athletics and for that matter all human movement. An understanding of the agonist/antagonist relationship of muscles will reveal this.
    Saying that eccentrics should be avoided because they involve greater forces, is like saying lifting weights should be avoided because it involves greater forces than everyday life.

  26. #25
    My own personal trainer dumbbell's Avatar
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    Does your training partner need more rowing work?

    Do the work yourself. That way you know how much you actually lifted. And when the time comes to add weight to the bar you'll know that you are actually getting stronger. You will have a concrete reference to go by. That is actual, honest progression.
    Jason

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