The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Your favorate RAW routine

    I am curious what you guys have used to increase your raw total. Currently I am using Wender's 5/3/1 (have been for the past 2 months). It has been working for my squat nicely, but not so much for me for my deadlift or bench. I perhaps may have over estimated my numbers (most likely). What style routine has worked for your raw total? I am thinking of going back to bill starr's 5x5 but am not sure. I have a decent idea of what I need to work on, but I would like to hear your opinions. Input from the pros here is greatly appreciated .

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  3. #2
    TJW Keith's Avatar
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    Stick with Wendler's 5/3/1.

    Low starting numbers are essential for this program. Have you been de-loading? I'll be the first to admit I'm impatient and want to make every damn session a ME one or else I'll feel like I'm doing jack **** but I'm starting to realize I need to start listening to people who are more experienced and stronger than me. Wendler stresses de-loading and starting with low numbers for this program to truly be effective.
    Last edited by Keith; 04-27-2009 at 02:39 PM.
    Age: 24 Height: 5'9" Weight: 185

    Gym PRs: 365/240/440=1045

    People need to quit ****ing asking what they need to do, exercise wise, until they reinforce their technique - Dave Tate

    The never-ending pursuit of becoming Strong(er) - My Westside journal

  4. #3
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Agreed. I took his advice and started using the conservative numbers as a starting point and it's worked out nicely. Like the OP said it's helped me most on squat, but I've also put about 20lbs on my DL in the past 4 months (which isn't bad for me). It's helped my bench the least but then nothing seems to help me with that.

    I'd stick with the 5-3-1 a bit longer, though, and see where it takes you.
    5'9" 195 lbs
    DL 600x1
    SQ 490x1 (raw)
    BP 430x1 (shirted), 320x1 (raw)
    SN 209x1 C+J 250x1


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  5. #4
    I'M CREEPING DEATH METAL VIPER's Avatar
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    I enjoy the Texas Method. I had been doing that until January and had to have surgery. After 4 months off, I'm running Starting Strength until I get back to Texas Method.
    \m/METALLICA\m/ R.I.P. Cliff Burton 2/10/62-9/26/86
    Die, by my hand, I creep across the land, killing first born man

  6. #5
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Question about your deloading.

    After squats I usually do 3x10 of highbar squats, should I still try and hit a rep PR or a weight PR while deloading? Also on bench day for deloading I hit triceps heavy, should I perhaps not do that?

    What is the Texas method?
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 04-27-2009 at 02:54 PM.

  7. #6
    Go Bears Pete22's Avatar
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    I've been using a modified Westside template for almost a year now, and my raw lifts have gone up considerably. I think the stigma of it being a "geared only" training style is just wrong.
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    You want science and studies? **** you. I've got scars and blood and vomit. - Jim Wendler

  8. #7
    TJW Keith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    After squats I usually do 3x10 of highbar squats, should I still try and hit a rep PR or a weight PR while deloading? Also on bench day for deloading I hit triceps heavy, should I perhaps not do that?
    If you're de-loading, then de-load! Shooting for a rep or weight PR is not de-loading in any way. Neither is hitting any body part "heavy". Bring everything down.
    Age: 24 Height: 5'9" Weight: 185

    Gym PRs: 365/240/440=1045

    People need to quit ****ing asking what they need to do, exercise wise, until they reinforce their technique - Dave Tate

    The never-ending pursuit of becoming Strong(er) - My Westside journal

  9. #8
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Ok will do, thanks!

  10. #9
    Habingus
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    Question about your deloading.

    After squats I usually do 3x10 of highbar squats, should I still try and hit a rep PR or a weight PR while deloading? Also on bench day for deloading I hit triceps heavy, should I perhaps not do that?

    What is the Texas method?
    Wendler says to deload everything on the deload week. Less volume and less weight. So I'd say just go light and don't try for PR's.
    "I PLAY BY MY OWN RULES"

  11. #10
    Demons of Steel and Flesh HP666's Avatar
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    5/3/1

    And just realize, you can't do the 531 for two months. This is a program designed for the long haul. You need to give it at least a year. Do it as it says, deload as prescribed. There is a reason for this.

    I know it probably goes against every fiber of your being, but on the deload week ONLY do the main exercise for the day,(at the proper deload weights), then call it a day. Just drop the accessory work even. You WILL NOT get weaker, or smaller, I promise.
    Last edited by HP666; 04-27-2009 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #11
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    I agree the stigma of Westside only works for multi-ply is unjustified. Look at what Super Training is doing by applying the principles to single-ply lifting. Westside works whether it's raw, single, or multi.

    We have 3 raw lifters that are making great progress with it in a short time period. All three were using different training methods before and had plateaued.
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  13. #12
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    I think any of the above recommendations should work well, Just pick something and stick with it. If you dedicate yourself and train like you are supposed to there is no way your total CAN'T go up.

  14. #13
    I'M CREEPING DEATH METAL VIPER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post

    What is the Texas method?
    Texas Method
    Keep in mind this is a template, not a flat routine. You can customize it as you like.
    \m/METALLICA\m/ R.I.P. Cliff Burton 2/10/62-9/26/86
    Die, by my hand, I creep across the land, killing first born man

  15. #14
    Demons of Steel and Flesh HP666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusWild View Post
    I agree the stigma of Westside only works for multi-ply is unjustified. Look at what Super Training is doing by applying the principles to single-ply lifting. Westside works whether it's raw, single, or multi.

    We have 3 raw lifters that are making great progress with it in a short time period. All three were using different training methods before and had plateaued.

    It works for a strictly raw lifter but the use of bands and chains are much less necessary.

  16. #15
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    I'd disagree. I think bands and chains are essential. It's a key part of developing maximal rate of force deployment.
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  17. #16
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Westside works excellent for the raw lifter

    Bands and chains also will speed progression and open up many more options for the lifter

    So it's not a matter of essential or non essential, rather just a preference on the number of options.

    I'm a huge fan of variety in training and feel that bands and chains really add this factor. When training raw, you just use a little less tension weight.

    The morning crew at Westside trains bench raw 3 weeks out of the month. 5 of us have well over 500 raw benches and one is quite close to a 600.


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  18. #17
    Always listening & learnin lil' power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Westside works excellent for the raw lifter

    Bands and chains also will speed progression and open up many more options for the lifter
    Yea that

    Started lifting Westside probably around August 2008...see the differences? Almost a 100# total increase at a lower weight....Westside WORKS-bands included!

    Last total: June 2008 165 Womenís Master class 45-49 RAW /weight: 164
    Squat: 290#
    Bench: 155#
    DL: 315#
    Total: 760# made Master classification for raw lifters

    Last total: April 2009 165 Womenís RAW / weight: 154
    Squat: 325#
    Bench: 176#
    DL: 352#
    Total: 854# made Elite classification for raw lifters
    RAW/165's/ 365-215-360-940 ttl -Elite
    Single Ply/ 165's / 450-325-380 - 1155 ttl -Pro

  19. #18
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    At the powerlifting gym I will be lifting at I will have access to bands and chains. How could I incorporate them into 5/3/1? For bench my biggest problem is my lockout and for deadlift, lockout as well. For squats I would say the limiting factor is my lower back.

    My main lift for bench I was thinking of being floor press and for my main lift for deadlift I was going to do rackpulls. How can I use chains/bands with all this in mind?

  20. #19
    TJW Keith's Avatar
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    If you have the 5/3/1 book, all of those questions are answered in there. He doesn't recommend using bands or chains at all in the program. I would just stick to what he says, dude.
    Age: 24 Height: 5'9" Weight: 185

    Gym PRs: 365/240/440=1045

    People need to quit ****ing asking what they need to do, exercise wise, until they reinforce their technique - Dave Tate

    The never-ending pursuit of becoming Strong(er) - My Westside journal

  21. #20
    Wannabebig Member
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    I prefer Sheiko Training.

    I have a couple of questions for the 5/3/1 experts.

    Do you think that the frequency on the main lifts is enough?


    Do you think that the volume on the main lifts is enough?



    Do you think that working with submaximal weights for so long is optimal?


    I ran it for 8 cycles taking the standard 10% off of my weights so I have done this routine before. With the questions, I am just curious as to what the experts thoughts are.

  22. #21
    Demons of Steel and Flesh HP666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINK_313 View Post


    I ran it for 8 cycles taking the standard 10% off of my weights so I have done this routine before. With the questions, I am just curious as to what the experts thoughts are.
    You ran it for 8 months?

  23. #22
    Wannabebig Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by HP666 View Post
    You ran it for 8 months?
    Approximately yes.

  24. #23
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    you aren't going to get stronger by second guessing the programs that you decide to run. you have to believe in the program and get stronger on your own. just keep at it and good things will happen.

  25. #24
    Habingus
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    At the powerlifting gym I will be lifting at I will have access to bands and chains. How could I incorporate them into 5/3/1? For bench my biggest problem is my lockout and for deadlift, lockout as well. For squats I would say the limiting factor is my lower back.

    My main lift for bench I was thinking of being floor press and for my main lift for deadlift I was going to do rackpulls. How can I use chains/bands with all this in mind?
    Board press with chains or straight weight, or floor press with chains. As far as lockout for deadlift I don't think rack pulls are a good idea, more lat work, DB rows Kroc-style any kind of upper back work.
    "I PLAY BY MY OWN RULES"

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    At the powerlifting gym I will be lifting at I will have access to bands and chains. How could I incorporate them into 5/3/1? For bench my biggest problem is my lockout and for deadlift, lockout as well. For squats I would say the limiting factor is my lower back.

    My main lift for bench I was thinking of being floor press and for my main lift for deadlift I was going to do rackpulls. How can I use chains/bands with all this in mind?



    I think that you idea of using floor press and rack pulls with the 5/3/1 will probably get you really strong at floor pressing and rack pulling...but not necessarily at benching or deadlifting. That's not to say that your bench and deadlift won't get stronger per se; if you put 55lbs. on your floor press, your bench has probably gone up, too. I just don't know if partial range of motion every week/all the time is a good way to train them for a raw lifter. That coming from a guy who loves partial range of motion movements, haha. I think that with raw lifting, a full range of motion is so important. If you like floor presses and rack pulls, perhaps add them in as a heavy secondary exercise after your main exercise.

    That's not to say that straight weight to the chest and deads from the floor is the only way....just trying to point out the importance of training a full range of motion for a raw lifter.

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