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Thread: clean and press vs. power clean

  1. #1
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    clean and press vs. power clean

    I have been experimenting lately with the clean and press, and i realize its been hurting my shoulder a bit. I think i may stick to the power clean? What are peoples thoughts on these 2 exercises and how vital they are? (As important as squat/deads?) anyway also i wanna start BGB again, i stopped it in oct 08 for different workout since i was bored. Where can i fit one of them in? Or if anyone else knows of a diff workout 4 days/week w p-cleans or something in them, let me know. Thanks!

    Pete

  2. #2
    Getting un-streamlined Progress's Avatar
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    The clean and press is exactly what it sounds like; it's two movements performed in succession. You clean the weight up to your delts, then press. Is the press what is bothering you?

    Power cleans are good for trap building but primarily to help your DL.

    Built suggests hang cleans on vertical push/pull day. Do them prior to the rest of your lifts that day.

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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    How would power cleans help your DL?

    I dont think cleans are ever a good substitute on pulling. Most people dont have good enough form to engage the traps correctly. "pulling" would be better suited with pullups or rows. I think this is a problem with SS too. The clean, especially for novices, should be revolved around triple hip extension and jumping and should be treated as such. I think they fall in a category much much different that vertical/horizontal push/pull and quad/ham dominant days.

    I would put them at the beginning of the WO on whatever day you feel most comfortable.
    Sarvamangalam!

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    Ich bin Legende. Torrok's Avatar
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    first, can someone clear up the difference between power cleans and hang cleans for me?

    and secondly, IMO clean and press is kinda like the front squat to me. i can clean far more than i can press. so the clean part of the movement isnt really exercised but the press part is. like front squats, i can back squat far more than i can front squat. so my quads barley get anything from front squats.

    so i say power cleans on one day, and OH press on another.
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  5. #5
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    There are full cleans and there are power cleans.

    You can do either from a hang at any height or from the floor.
    Sarvamangalam!

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    Must...work...out... nockits's Avatar
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    alright, just as i thought, power cleans are from the floor, and hang cleans are starting mid-air. however, what are the differences between power and full cleans? this is the first time i heard of full cleans...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalami View Post
    I just give the worked on muscle group tough riddles before my workouts... or sometimes I'll tell them we're going to the park and then go to the gym, or visa versa. They start to catch on so you have to tell the truth every so often.
    *While on the topic of muscle confusion, and how often a routine needs to be changed.*

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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    You drop below parallel in a full clean/squat clean and rebound out of the hole
    Sarvamangalam!

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    Getting un-streamlined Progress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    How would power cleans help your DL?

    I dont think cleans are ever a good substitute on pulling. Most people dont have good enough form to engage the traps correctly. "pulling" would be better suited with pullups or rows. I think this is a problem with SS too. The clean, especially for novices, should be revolved around triple hip extension and jumping and should be treated as such. I think they fall in a category much much different that vertical/horizontal push/pull and quad/ham dominant days.

    I would put them at the beginning of the WO on whatever day you feel most comfortable.
    I didn't pull that out of thin air. I remember reading somewhere, perhaps this board, that the power clean helps the deadlift.

    I never said it is a replacement and I never said it is a true pull movement.

    That said, full clean (from the floor into full squat) incorporates more muscles/movement than a hang clean (partial power clean). Would you disagree?

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    Getting un-streamlined Progress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    How would power cleans help your DL?
    This:
    According to Starr, there were four exercises that carried over to the deadlift: power cleans, heavy shrugs, hi-pulls and good mornings.
    From here: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21579

    This:
    "Powercleans are great for ... 5. Deadlift assistance..."
    From here: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...The_Powerclean

    The power clean from the floor is an explosive movement and should carry over to the deadlift as it provides a dynamic movement.

    I get that the clean incorporates great hip extension but it doesn't negate the fact that it all starts with a deadlift.

  10. #10
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progress View Post
    I didn't pull that out of thin air. I remember reading somewhere, perhaps this board, that the power clean helps the deadlift.

    I never said it is a replacement and I never said it is a true pull movement.

    That said, full clean (from the floor into full squat) incorporates more muscles/movement than a hang clean (partial power clean). Would you disagree?
    To your 1st point:
    Im sure to some extent cleans help DLs. But the form is so so different. As a matter of fact many WL coaches advise against their lifters doing DLs due to the dramatic difference in the pull styles. Here are a few.

    On a clean bar path is straight up above the balls of the feet
    VS Pulling the bar back in a DL

    The weight distribution on a clean throught the 1st, 2nd and third pull is balls to midfeet back to balls.
    VS weight on heels on the DL

    On a clean you squat the bar up then engage the hips. In otherwords, you back does not change angles until your knees are almost completely straight, then you engage the hams, glutes and hips to pull the 2nd pull.
    VS very different form in the DL.



    To your 2nd point:
    You may not have suggested. When Rippetoe or Built says that cleans can replace a pulling motion it is very misleading and implies some congruity... no?


    To your 3rd point:

    I would say they both engage all of the same muscles but a full clean engages them to a fuller extent. Would you agree? I think it is bolstered when you think about the technical definitino of the power clean. You can catch it just above parallel thus engaging to a fuller extent than if it were caught really high, but all of the muscles are still engaged. You also have to remember that a hang clean generally begins at the end of the 1st pull-while the quads are dominant. So, in essence everything is being engaged in the exact same order in a hang power clean and in a full clean--- although not to the same extent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Progress View Post
    This:


    From here: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21579

    This:

    From here: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...The_Powerclean

    The power clean from the floor is an explosive movement and should carry over to the deadlift as it provides a dynamic movement.

    I get that the clean incorporates great hip extension but it doesn't negate the fact that it all starts with a deadlift.

    See above. It does not start with a DL. Like I said, Im sure they help to some extent... that extent cannot be measured like how you could, for example, compare rack pulls to a DL. Its more like how bicep or lat work can help your bench press (not a very good analogy)
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 04-27-2009 at 07:39 PM.
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  11. #11
    Getting un-streamlined Progress's Avatar
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    I stand corrected then. I always figured the first part of the movement is a deadlift since I'm pulling it from the floor into the hang/jump position.

  12. #12
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Thats a pretty common misconception. Maybe you can get you clean #s up as a result of trying it differently next time!
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 04-28-2009 at 07:25 AM.
    Sarvamangalam!

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    Rippetoe says power cleans can be substituted by pendalay rows (dynamic rows from the floor basically) and that they both help keep the deadlift numbers raising.

    heavy rows have helped my deadlift the most the last few months.

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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadhi_smiles View Post
    Rippetoe says power cleans can be substituted by pendalay rows (dynamic rows from the floor basically) and that they both help keep the deadlift numbers raising.

    heavy rows have helped my deadlift the most the last few months.
    That is fine but Pendlay Rows should NOT be a substitute for Cleans or vice versa.
    Sarvamangalam!

  15. #15
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    The idea is that cleans help your deadlift in the same way DE work does. I'd tend to think there is some merit to that idea.
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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge Sanchez View Post
    The idea is that cleans help your deadlift in the same way DE work does. I'd tend to think there is some merit to that idea.
    Right but DE entails using similar for to the ME movement. That would be like doing DE lat work to help bench pressing. It just doesnt make sense and is a certified time waster if DL #s increasing is the goal. There is some indirect connection but thats about it.

    To illustrate better, the clean starts very slow and is not explosive until the 2nd half of the 2nd pull. I can see how if might help with explosive hip drive but it will not ever be as effective as a DE movement that mimics the ME movement.

    This is what it should look like:
    Means: Cleans
    Indirect End: Increased DL #s.
    Direct End: Athletic performance?

    VS

    Means: Rack Pulls
    Indirect End: Increased DL #s
    Direct End: Move past a sticking point

    Im not saying there will be no benefit from cleans... it is just a very inefficient way to go about it and the cost/benefit of doing cleans for DL help is a good deal lower than the cost/benefit of doing a DL accessory for DL poundage. Just like if you want to get better at squatting ab work will not do as much for you as quad/ham work.
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 04-28-2009 at 02:59 PM.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    I tend to think the clean is similar enough to a deadlift to have some carry over. I'm sure you're right that it's not the best deadlift assistance, though.
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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Yea, of course there is carry over. My weighted situps have carry over to my squats but I can think of bout a million movements that would be better suited to increase my squat numbers.

    You cant derive an ought form an is... just because there is some carry over does not mean it should be used for that. (that is, if efficiency is the overall goal)

    Coming from a WL perspective it would be intuitive to include deadlifts in my training... but we generally dont because of the dramatic form seperation and lack of carry over. Im not trying to equivocate that the other way around but it seems plausible to say that if DL does not carry over well to WL then WL does not carry over well to DL. Again, think about my last post with the means, direct and indirect ends.
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 04-28-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    I don't think we actually disagree that much. I wouldn't advocate cleans because they would help bring your deadlifts up. I would advocate them because they are a good movement that might, coincidentally, have some carryover to your deadlift.
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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge Sanchez View Post
    I don't think we actually disagree that much. I wouldn't advocate cleans because they would help bring your deadlifts up. I would advocate them because they are a good movement that might, coincidentally, have some carryover to your deadlift.
    Yea, we agree completely. I never thought we really didnt
    Sarvamangalam!

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    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    This discussion of form is flawed because there is no set form on the deadlift. This Starr/Rippetoe talk about cleans and deadlifts work fine because they essentially teach clean-style deadlifts. In that instance, the form would carry over fine.

  22. #22
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Perhaps that is true, but the general intuition on DLing is very different from o pulling. I dont think Rip talks about 1st, 2nd and 3rd pulls that much and the moment direction of the bar path. In a DL you pull the bar toward your body, whereas o pull you keep the bar close put the bar path is intended to go straight up. Thats a big enough difference to take a step back and thiink about the difference betweent he two lifts. I still maintain that a conventional DL can be augmented much better by using different methods than cleaning. While there will always be some carry over the form issues are not easily swept under the rug. Either way this is a difficult problem to broach due to the lack of empical evidence
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 05-07-2009 at 01:04 PM.
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  23. #23
    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    Rip teaches a power clean as the first part of a deadlift to the mid-thigh then a jump and rack. He also teaches a vertical bar path on everything (which I disagree with for the quick lifts).

    It may or may not help, but I think it's important to keep things in perspective. When a person says they squat/deadlift/clean/bench/whatever on the internet, I can't assume that their version or interpretation of the exercise is the same as mine.

  24. #24
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Sure, you are right. So you dont agree that the bar path on an O pull should be intended to be vertical? I think if you try to make the path vertical an S pull will happen, but the bar path is still intended to be a flat, vertical line (according to my sources)
    Sarvamangalam!

  25. #25
    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    The intent to pull vertically might be fine, I just disagree with the reality of a perfectly vertical bar path being the most efficient method of using the anatomy to move the bar.

    The Kono Project DVDs are very nice in dissecting the bar path from some top American lifters.

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