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Thread: Lockout Strength for Deadlifts

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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Lockout Strength for Deadlifts

    I was wondering does the Strength for locking out heavy weight in the Deadlift come from your back muscles,like Lats or is it more of a hip Strength kinda thing.Reason i ask is okay my squat is Lower than my deadlift.I feel as though i can pull almost anything off the ground but then when i get it past my knees i stall and have to hitch on a max weight.

    So if it is Hips for instance then maybe i can figure out the exercises i need to do to strengthen up my weakspots for the lockout.So i thought that since my squats arent near my deadlift then maybe thats whats giving me a hard time locking weight out,because then my quads and hips might not be strong enough to push through to lockout.
    Last edited by Erik 23; 05-26-2009 at 04:52 PM.

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    Atheist Lifter evilxxx's Avatar
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    Rack pulls from mid shins and from the knees have been working nice for me. my worst spot was the initial pull but you dont have a problem with that, but decifits are working fine for me and diferent feet placement.
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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilxxx View Post
    Rack pulls from mid shins and from the knees have been working nice for me. my worst spot was the initial pull but you dont have a problem with that, but decifits are working fine for me and diferent feet placement.
    Yeah im doing rack pulls now my problem with that is that im weaker from the rack then i am off the floor.I am still having a little trouble hitching in there too.So im trying to figure out what is my weakpoint.I guess im trying to figure out which muscle group is weak so ill know how to attack it in training.The deficits i havent tried them yet and ill try the differn feet placement maybe thatll help me thanx man.

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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Do deadlifts with bands. Deadlift in a rack and tie the bands to the bottom of the rack and loop over the bar. It mimics a deadlift exactly except adds like 100lbs do the lockout (depending on the bands and your height of course).
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 05-26-2009 at 05:25 PM.

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    Strongman Tom Mutaffis's Avatar
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    Bottom position high box squats, rack pulls, band/chain work, and tweaking your setup may all help the top portion of your deadlift.

    A slightly wider stance allows you to involve more hips in the lift, and making sure to sink your hips on the initial pull will leave you in a better position to finish the lift.

    If strength is what is limiting you then heavy rack work should resolve that and box squats can provide for some variation and additional hip strength.
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    Go Bears Pete22's Avatar
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    Upper back strength is crucial for my lockout, when my DB/BB rows feel strong then my lockout is usually solid. Shooting my hips through is also key, I use pull-throughs and SLDLs and focus on popping my hips through at the top.
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    GFH Lones Green's Avatar
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    I find hip work more useful than anything. Pulls with bands are my favorite, pulls from blocks and rack pulls with heavy band tension, GHR's, pull throughs, goodmornings.
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    Do you have any video of a max or near max lift? It's tough to tell what's going on without seeing what's going on. For example, I've observed that the majority of conventional DL's that stall above the knees are due to the fact that they get in poor position off the floor and are rounded over so much at the top that they can't finish. So just because the problem is above the knees doesn't necessarily mean it's the hips. It could be any number of things, so the video is important in really trying to diagnose the problem.

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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    Do deadlifts with bands. Deadlift in a rack and tie the bands to the bottom of the rack and loop over the bar. It mimics a deadlift exactly except adds like 100lbs do the lockout (depending on the bands and your height of course).
    Thanx man i do these once in awhile i will start back to them havent done them in forever lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis View Post
    Bottom position high box squats, rack pulls, band/chain work, and tweaking your setup may all help the top portion of your deadlift.

    A slightly wider stance allows you to involve more hips in the lift, and making sure to sink your hips on the initial pull will leave you in a better position to finish the lift.

    If strength is what is limiting you then heavy rack work should resolve that and box squats can provide for some variation and additional hip strength.
    Thanx Tom did Deads today i widened my stance a little just those few inches made a world of differnce i almost locked out 805 was only a few inches off.I Couldnt hitch really with the wider stance which is good lol. It was pretty much just a continous pull my warm ups all flew up too i guess it was a hip issue because everything went better today.Ive been doing rack pulls thats what i did today out of the lowest pin in the rack havent been doing bands and chains to much latley ima start back since you all are reccomending them more.I never tried bottom position high box squats.Just to make sure im getting it right.You start out sitting on the box and just squat up from there? and how high should the box be? thanx for the help Tom talk to you soon.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusWild View Post
    Conventional or sumo?
    I Deadlift conventional
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete22 View Post
    Upper back strength is crucial for my lockout, when my DB/BB rows feel strong then my lockout is usually solid. Shooting my hips through is also key, I use pull-throughs and SLDLs and focus on popping my hips through at the top.
    Thanx pete havent done Rows in forever i will eventually add these in too again I never did pull throughs are they that beneficial? there Primarilly a back excercise right? and which band do you recomend using for these? and yeah i think its my hips i have to learn how to shoot them thru quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonesXedge View Post
    I find hip work more useful than anything. Pulls with bands are my favorite, pulls from blocks and rack pulls with heavy band tension, GHR's, pull throughs, goodmornings.
    Thanx lones Everyone is saying a lot of band work i havent done a lot of it in a little bit ima definately start back havent done goodmorings but a few times If they help your hip strength a lot i might add these into my routine once in a while.Thanx man for the response
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    Do you have any video of a max or near max lift? It's tough to tell what's going on without seeing what's going on. For example, I've observed that the majority of conventional DL's that stall above the knees are due to the fact that they get in poor position off the floor and are rounded over so much at the top that they can't finish. So just because the problem is above the knees doesn't necessarily mean it's the hips. It could be any number of things, so the video is important in really trying to diagnose the problem.
    Okay here is the link i almost locked this but as you see this is my problem like i can pull almost anything off the floor but once i get past the knees thats where i tend to stall out .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ldX...e=channel_page

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7Lp...e=channel_page
    Last edited by Erik 23; 05-26-2009 at 09:58 PM.

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    I think your issue is form. Why do you go back so far with your upper back? Just lock your knees and you'll have it locked out. That and sweat pants aren't going to help when the bar is dragging against them.
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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusWild View Post
    I think your issue is form. Why do you go back so far with your upper back? Just lock your knees and you'll have it locked out. That and sweat pants aren't going to help when the bar is dragging against them.
    I dont know why i lean back thats why im asking for advice the sweats dont bother me too much ive been doing them in shorts latley though.I know im supposed to just lock knees out but its like my body dosent do that when i get it up so far ionno why.

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    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    I find that glute, hip, and upper back strength are most important for me on DL lockouts. I pull conventional. The things that have helped me most in the past have been good mornings, glute ham raises, and heavy rack squats focusing on bringing the hips forward by squeezing your glutes tight and that usually makes me bring my shoulders back. Once it gets past my knees I just really think about squezzing my glutes, brining hips forward and lockout out knees at the same time. I don't even do any rack pulls (haven't helped me much), just a lot of the aformentioned movements and pulling from the floor and my lockouts have never been better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik 23 View Post
    I was wondering does the Strength for locking out heavy weight in the Deadlift come from your back muscles,like Lats or is it more of a hip Strength kinda thing.Reason i ask is okay my squat is Lower than my deadlift.I feel as though i can pull almost anything off the ground but then when i get it past my knees i stall and have to hitch on a max weight.

    So if it is Hips for instance then maybe i can figure out the exercises i need to do to strengthen up my weakspots for the lockout.
    Erik,

    One exericise the will help the top part of your pull is the Power Clean from the hang position. The hang position being just below the knee caps to just above them.

    Power Cleans will work everything involved in the top part of the deadlift (lats, traps, hips, etc).

    Kenny Croxdale

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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    I find that glute, hip, and upper back strength are most important for me on DL lockouts. I pull conventional. The things that have helped me most in the past have been good mornings, glute ham raises, and heavy rack squats focusing on bringing the hips forward by squeezing your glutes tight and that usually makes me bring my shoulders back. Once it gets past my knees I just really think about squezzing my glutes, brining hips forward and lockout out knees at the same time. I don't even do any rack pulls (haven't helped me much), just a lot of the aformentioned movements and pulling from the floor and my lockouts have never been better.
    Hey Guido thanx for the tips From what every one says its my hips i think so im going to start a training cycle trying to bring up my hip strength thanx again man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Croxdale View Post
    Erik,

    One exericise the will help the top part of your pull is the Power Clean from the hang position. The hang position being just below the knee caps to just above them.

    Power Cleans will work everything involved in the top part of the deadlift (lats, traps, hips, etc).

    Kenny Croxdale
    Hey kenny thanx man i never tried this excercise ill give it a try and see if it helps thanx.

  16. #16
    IRL my name is Trent Hazerboy's Avatar
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    Erik,
    You're situation is very... weird. I've never see anyone come off the floor with that sort of speed and fail so quickly at the knees. Obviously the advice everyone is giving you is to work the top part of the lift somehow (bands, rack lockouts, etc) though just from watching your videos I'd say it is a form issue, in which case most of use aren't going to be able to help you very much. Something specific looks like it might be going wrong here, or else you're just incredibly weak at the top or something (which I don't think is the case - whats your best deadlift lockouts? Whats your best squat? both are very heavy I'm guessing). My advice to you is to ask Sgt. ROCK on this board. He is a deadlift specialist who knows what he's talking about, and if something weird is going on with your form, he'll probably know how to help.

    Anyways, I'll go on ahead and give you my .02 cents about some stuff that might help you anyways. I rarely do rack lockouts and I don't pull against bands much. Eventually, when I start pulling heavier weights, I might have to start focusing on it, but I figure that as long as I have enough floor spead I should be able to make it to lock out. This is why I think its a form issue for you - when most people fail at lockout, they SLOW DOWN heavily first, they don't just stop.

    anyways, I pull from deficiets a lot and do a **** ton of chin ups and pull ups. This brought my deadlift from 500 - 550 in maybe 9 months at 200 lbs while I was really concentrating on bench and squat. My best rack pull from the knees is maybe 600 lbs. I will maybe pull a few heavy singles a week and thats it.

    So yeah. get your form checked is all I can tell you XD
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    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    One form tip that might help is to think about pushing your heels through the floor. It will force you to keep your weight back more and have a bit more of an upright back at the start of the pull. Also make sure the bar is over the middle of your feet when you start the pull (about 2 inches from shins). Some people start with the bar too far away and the combination of that and the not pushing through the heels makes them in a non-advantageous position for pulling once the bar gets to their knees and then that's of course where they stall out.
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    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Erik, you're still hitching in those two videos bud.

    It looks like more habit than anything else, but as soon as you lay that bar on your knees/quads, that leaning back and fourth thing is still considered hitching. At least it'll get you reds in a meet.

    I'd throw in some upper back work, specifically DB rows. Hard and heavy.


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    To echo some others, it looks mostly like a habit you've developed. Do you do this with submax weights?
    Concentrate on pushing your hips forward and picking your head up at the same time as soon as the weight clears your knees. Right now your pick your head up, but you shoot your knees forward at the same time. I think practicing correct form with submax weights and working up over a period of weeks to keep reinforcing the correct form would help. You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.

  20. #20
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.
    Yeah. That is a good suggestion, as well.

    Also, watch this vid of my recent 600 pull. It's not as much as some guys on here can lift but I think I have decent form for doing max effort weight. I also start to stall right around the knees and then you'll see me fight to bring my hips forward, shoulders back, and lock knees at the same time.

    Video
    Last edited by Guido; 05-28-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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    Strongman Tom Mutaffis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik 23 View Post
    Thanx Tom did Deads today i widened my stance a little just those few inches made a world of differnce i almost locked out 805 was only a few inches off.I Couldnt hitch really with the wider stance which is good lol. It was pretty much just a continous pull my warm ups all flew up too i guess it was a hip issue because everything went better today.Ive been doing rack pulls thats what i did today out of the lowest pin in the rack havent been doing bands and chains to much latley ima start back since you all are reccomending them more.I never tried bottom position high box squats.Just to make sure im getting it right.You start out sitting on the box and just squat up from there? and how high should the box be? thanx for the help Tom talk to you soon.
    I actually do the bottom position squats off of the pins, but a high box (or bench) works also. Basically like a quarter squat but you are starting from the bottom. Deadlifts start from the bottom so this makes the movement a bit more similar in terms of how you engage the weight.

    Switching over to OLY squats as opposed to PL squats may have better carryover to your deadlift as well.

    Heavy upper back work as Travis suggested would be a good idea as well. One arm dumbell rows with a little bit of loose form. A guy with your strength should easily be handling the heaviest DB's that your gym has.

    The hang cleans may help out a bit as well. They are a good movement for building upper back power.
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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazerboy View Post
    Erik,
    You're situation is very... weird. I've never see anyone come off the floor with that sort of speed and fail so quickly at the knees. Obviously the advice everyone is giving you is to work the top part of the lift somehow (bands, rack lockouts, etc) though just from watching your videos I'd say it is a form issue, in which case most of use aren't going to be able to help you very much. Something specific looks like it might be going wrong here, or else you're just incredibly weak at the top or something (which I don't think is the case - whats your best deadlift lockouts? Whats your best squat? both are very heavy I'm guessing). My advice to you is to ask Sgt. ROCK on this board. He is a deadlift specialist who knows what he's talking about, and if something weird is going on with your form, he'll probably know how to help.

    Anyways, I'll go on ahead and give you my .02 cents about some stuff that might help you anyways. I rarely do rack lockouts and I don't pull against bands much. Eventually, when I start pulling heavier weights, I might have to start focusing on it, but I figure that as long as I have enough floor spead I should be able to make it to lock out. This is why I think its a form issue for you - when most people fail at lockout, they SLOW DOWN heavily first, they don't just stop.

    anyways, I pull from deficiets a lot and do a **** ton of chin ups and pull ups. This brought my deadlift from 500 - 550 in maybe 9 months at 200 lbs while I was really concentrating on bench and squat. My best rack pull from the knees is maybe 600 lbs. I will maybe pull a few heavy singles a week and thats it.

    So yeah. get your form checked is all I can tell you XD
    Thanx for the Response Hazer boy yeah form is my biggest problem A few guys recommended my stance so i widened it out a bit and its been going a little better,Im still conventional just a little wider.But thanx man ima do more bands like everyone is saying my best rack lockout is 815 from about at the knees or a pin above i forget which one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    One form tip that might help is to think about pushing your heels through the floor. It will force you to keep your weight back more and have a bit more of an upright back at the start of the pull. Also make sure the bar is over the middle of your feet when you start the pull (about 2 inches from shins). Some people start with the bar too far away and the combination of that and the not pushing through the heels makes them in a non-advantageous position for pulling once the bar gets to their knees and then that's of course where they stall out.
    Hey Guido thanx I pulled the other day with the bar about 2 inches or so in front of me and it went better then having it drive up my legs the whole way.I will focus on driving my feet straight thru the floor thanx again for the response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Erik, you're still hitching in those two videos bud.

    It looks like more habit than anything else, but as soon as you lay that bar on your knees/quads, that leaning back and fourth thing is still considered hitching. At least it'll get you reds in a meet.

    I'd throw in some upper back work, specifically DB rows. Hard and heavy.
    Hey Travis yeah your right thats not gonna pass in a meet im just trying to find out what my weakness is i think its my hips from everyones comments so now i have to pick a good excercise to attack it.Okay ima throw in the Db rows these will hit the lats pretty good maybe theyll hit something im missing thanx Travis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    To echo some others, it looks mostly like a habit you've developed. Do you do this with submax weights?
    Concentrate on pushing your hips forward and picking your head up at the same time as soon as the weight clears your knees. Right now your pick your head up, but you shoot your knees forward at the same time. I think practicing correct form with submax weights and working up over a period of weeks to keep reinforcing the correct form would help. You might also consider RDL's to just below the knees. Again, push the hips forward as soon as the bar clears the knees.
    Hey Sean thanx for the response yeah i tend to do this even with weights that arent a max Ima work on pushing my hips out and picking my head up more thanx.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    Yeah. That is a good suggestion, as well.

    Also, watch this vid of my recent 600 pull. It's not as much as some guys on here can lift but I think I have decent form for doing max effort weight. I also start to stall right around the knees and then you'll see me fight to bring my hips forward, shoulders back, and lock knees at the same time.

    Video
    Hey Guido Awesome Video man yeah you fought throu that it was a good lift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis View Post
    I actually do the bottom position squats off of the pins, but a high box (or bench) works also. Basically like a quarter squat but you are starting from the bottom. Deadlifts start from the bottom so this makes the movement a bit more similar in terms of how you engage the weight.

    Switching over to OLY squats as opposed to PL squats may have better carryover to your deadlift as well.

    Heavy upper back work as Travis suggested would be a good idea as well. One arm dumbell rows with a little bit of loose form. A guy with your strength should easily be handling the heaviest DB's that your gym has.

    The hang cleans may help out a bit as well. They are a good movement for building upper back power.
    Thanx Tom for the advice im definately gonna do the dumbells and some straight weight barbell rows ill check out the hang cleans also.Thanx for your help ill keep you posted on how i do

  23. #23
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    I would probably wager Erik could pull 410 with spotless form as well.

    Just sayin is all


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    Buy some chucks to deadlift in and see if that helps. That or deadlift barefoot and see.
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    Senior Member Erik 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rctriplefresh5 View Post
    when i pull with proper form and an arched back and w/e i stall on the floor. if iget it past the floor i can lock it out. if i pull it with my regular max out form i have to grind out the lockout and ican pull about 50 pounds more than i can lockout. i never hitch or ramp though just good old fashion grinding.
    although whats weird is it looks like im using a lot of energy off from the floor in this video.
    Video
    Not sure if this video is meant to help me but okay thanx for posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    I would probably wager Erik could pull 410 with spotless form as well.

    Just sayin is all
    ROFLLLL Thanx Travis im pretty sure i could also

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusWild View Post
    Buy some chucks to deadlift in and see if that helps. That or deadlift barefoot and see.
    Thanx but that dosent change my form i have chucks and use them from time to time, what i have is a muscle inbalance im thinking its my hips thanx for the advice though.
    Last edited by Erik 23; 05-29-2009 at 10:01 PM.

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