The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Replacement for Powercleans?

    I want to know what's a good substitute for Power Cleans? Post your ideas, please.
    Name: Adrian
    Height: 5'8
    Weight: 142 lbs

    Goal: To be 175-180 lbs @ 10% body fat.

    If at first you don't succeed, YOU WERE TAUGHT BY LOSERS!

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  3. #2
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    there is no real substitute for the power clean. which particular muscles are you hoping to train by substituting the powerclean? Lats, hips ...?
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  4. #3
    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    Why do you want a replacement? The only legitimate reasons for not doing them:

    1. Past shoulder/wrist/elbow surgeries prevent being able to rack the bar at all.
    2. You're so damn strong you don't care about stupid powercleans.

    But, most people don't want to do them because they can be difficult to learn. But, they hear that powercleans are a great exercise. So, they want the benefits without having to do the work.

    You know what that's called? Communism. We don't need you hippie, vegetarian commies trying to replace the powerclean with your rows and what-nots.

    Or, just do clean pulls or power shrugs.

  5. #4
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    If I can get the results another way without doing them, I don't care much for cleans in that sense. Power Shrugs are shrugs with dumbbells right? I don't mind doing shrugs.
    Name: Adrian
    Height: 5'8
    Weight: 142 lbs

    Goal: To be 175-180 lbs @ 10% body fat.

    If at first you don't succeed, YOU WERE TAUGHT BY LOSERS!

  6. #5
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    IMO there is no substitute that messures up to power cleans.

    There grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat and cannot be replaced! lol

    I remember when I was taught to do them, they where a challenge to learn. However, very rewarding and that work the s*it out of you
    Last edited by xomatosis; 06-18-2009 at 01:35 PM.

  7. #6
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    There's no replacement...but how about Snatch.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian101 View Post
    If I can get the results another way without doing them, I don't care much for cleans in that sense. Power Shrugs are shrugs with dumbbells right? I don't mind doing shrugs.
    No. Power shrugs are the part of the powerclean movement. They are usually performed with a barbell. Without overcomplicating things they are basically a shrug with legdrive. Auburn or someone can go into more detail if you wish. See this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7oVLXzpqt0. You may start off the floor if you wish.

    You may do this lift to learn the technique of the powerclean and get some of its benefits. Powercleans are more for developing explosiveness than hypertrophy anyway. High pulls are basically powershrugs, plus an upright row (after the shrug, still explosive), either to the chest (ribcage) for snatches or midway up the chest for cleans. Remember, the basic sequence of the power clean (again I know little, auburn or someone may go into more detail) is deadlift, hips pop in once bar clears the knees, possibly causing thighs to hump the bar, you shrug (explosively) and raise onto your toes, pull the bar up high, then dip underneath to catch the bar (only a slight dip for a power clean but a very deep butt to ankles dip for a [full] clean). You don't neccessarily have to dip for a powerclean either. Practicing part of the movement can help you learn the full power clean.

    So power shrugs, high pulls are somewhat substitutes for power cleans and may help you learn the proper technique. However the muscle involvement is not nearly the same because the power clean has a wider ROM. And you did not answer my question earlier, however if it is explosive lats you are trying to achieve by doing powercleans, you may do rows off the floor explosively.

    EDIT: high pulls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5sx4...om=PL&index=70

    The videos I posted in here are hardly to olympic standards formwise, but you get the idea what the basic lift looks like.

    edit: explosive lats are obviously not the only benefit of the power cleans. I was simply assuming the OP might be desiring to achieve this by substituting powercleans.
    Last edited by AJ_H; 06-18-2009 at 02:05 PM.
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  9. #8
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    Well let's say I'm more of Lats fan than Hips. So Lats is what Im trying to work on.
    Name: Adrian
    Height: 5'8
    Weight: 142 lbs

    Goal: To be 175-180 lbs @ 10% body fat.

    If at first you don't succeed, YOU WERE TAUGHT BY LOSERS!

  10. #9
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    ^like I said, rows performed explosively off the floor. Is it explosiveness you want? Or hypertrophy? Also don't be a beach muscle guy if it is just lats and upper body and no hips or legs for you. You will progress faster training the body as a unit. Watch this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I8bX...4DE1F&index=24 - there are some hip replacement stuff in the first 2 or 3 mins.
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  11. #10
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    Also a video of your form up on here will help us to help you improve.
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  12. #11
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    I know I'm not going to be that beach guy lol...I'm doing compound training so that includes squats and everything else, so don't worry about the legs. I just wanted to sub that thing out with something that's adequate. Also, the fact that Bent Over Rows builds lats up is good to hear. I can't post any video of myself, no camera. I'm just starting out so I just need to get the questions out the way and feel safe while I'm training.
    Name: Adrian
    Height: 5'8
    Weight: 142 lbs

    Goal: To be 175-180 lbs @ 10% body fat.

    If at first you don't succeed, YOU WERE TAUGHT BY LOSERS!

  13. #12
    Must...work...out... nockits's Avatar
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    I thought someone (maybe Rippetoe himself?) said that BO rows were an acceptable substitute.
    Check out my Journal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalami View Post
    I just give the worked on muscle group tough riddles before my workouts... or sometimes I'll tell them we're going to the park and then go to the gym, or visa versa. They start to catch on so you have to tell the truth every so often.
    *While on the topic of muscle confusion, and how often a routine needs to be changed.*

  14. #13
    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nockits View Post
    I thought someone (maybe Rippetoe himself?) said that BO rows were an acceptable substitute.
    The book does kinda hint that way, but Rippetoe seems to have changed his mind. Since everyone seems to be supplementing rows for powercleans, his attitude toward the row as a replacement is pretty nasty over at his forum. Although, I think the fact that people call them 'Pendlay Rows' annoys him a little bit, too.

  15. #14
    Chubbs McGee Auburn's Avatar
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    If you're just wanting lats, the powerclean isn't the way to go. Just do heavy rows and pullups and you'll get your lats.

  16. #15
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    What kind of rows? I like powercleans, they are easy once you get the hang of them. Im just wondering, are upright rows a substitute?
    Last edited by Brian999; 06-18-2009 at 08:26 PM.

  17. #16
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    powercleans are really more of a sports specific lift designed to improve explosiveness. they build mass as well, but as long as you are squatting, dl'ing, rowing, and benching heavy...i really wouldnt think you are going to lose that much in mass gains.

    The best exercise to hit lats imo, are the Pendlay Rows used in Madcow. those absolutely kill your lats if you do them right.
    Last edited by rhymenocerous; 06-18-2009 at 09:23 PM.

  18. #17
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Powercleans are really not that hard. I learned how to do them myself. Just start doing them, even if it's with not 100% perfect form. Increase the weight by 5 lbs/workout, and keep reading and watching videos on form too. Just keep doing them, and you will learn that they actually aren't all that hard.

    Oh, and powercleans are GREAT for shoulders and traps too. I would never neglect doing them again now that I started. I also have rows included in my routine too, so I get ALL the benefits!
    Last edited by brihead301; 06-19-2009 at 06:43 AM.
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  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian999 View Post
    What kind of rows? I like powercleans, they are easy once you get the hang of them. Im just wondering, are upright rows a substitute?
    No. Upright rows are performed slow and controlled. Powercleans are a completely different kettle of fish.
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  20. #19
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    I don't see what all the fuss is about. Rippetoe's program will still work just fine with bent over rows instead of cleans. I suspect the only reason he uses them instead of rows is because 1) he likes them 2) they more effectively stress the posterior chain and 3) they are explosive, increased power development

    I would opt for powercleans too, but it doesn't matter too much if you decide that you don't want to learn the movement. Whatever you choose, don't do upright rows EVER:

    http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79289
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  21. #20
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    Thanks, I would love to work on my lats anyway. I have good genetics within that area already, should be easy to develop for me.
    Name: Adrian
    Height: 5'8
    Weight: 142 lbs

    Goal: To be 175-180 lbs @ 10% body fat.

    If at first you don't succeed, YOU WERE TAUGHT BY LOSERS!

  22. #21
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Just so you know, here is what Rippetoe thinks of this subject(copied and pasted from t-mag.com):

    Rippetoe: The Starting Strength program takes into account the fact that there are just a few basic exercises that, when done in a program of strict linear increase — come in, do 3x5 after your warm-up, go up 10 pounds in your next workout, and do that until it doesn't work anymore — they produce a total body adaptation that's superior to the use of exercises that dilute the body into bodyparts.

    In other words, we don't think, "legs." We think, "squat." We don't attempt to assemble a complete workout from bodyparts. We don't have muscle groups that are favorites; we don't think in terms of muscle groups. We think in terms of movements.

    I don't really coach but seven or eight exercises. We squat, and press overhead, we deadlift, we bench press, we clean, we snatch. We occasionally do barbell rows, but we don't really use barbell rows in our program.

    T-Nation: That's actually one of those telephone game problems that's popped up. Any reason for not using rows much?

    Rippetoe: It's a decent assistance exercise, and so are dips. I don't really want to put chins or pull-ups in that list, because they're essential upper body exercises. I think chin-ups and barbell rows are in two different categories. But we don't really use barbell rows, and I think that's one of the puzzling things that developed on the Internet.

    I think rows are in a lot of these spin-offs of my program because people need another exercise off the floor besides deadlifts, but everybody's afraid to learn the clean. I don't really understand it, except that, in people's minds, rows are easier to learn. They look slow, they don't look as complicated.

    I think I did a decent job of explaining the clean in the book, and I think it's a much better exercise than the barbell row. Because it can't be done slowly. That's why we use it. It's an explosive lift.

    T-Nation: You're okay with recreational lifters using the Olympic lifts? Do you think Average Joes can benefit from them?

    Rippetoe: Sure! Oh, God yes. For the same reasons, they can't be done slowly. You have to explode to do a snatch and a power clean. And explosive training recruits more motor units than slow training.

    To do things very, very slowly because it makes your muscles burn seems rather silly to me. It's like making your pecs burn. Just gotta get the pump, right?
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  23. #22
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    I didnt read any of this. Try the power snatch.
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  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    I didnt read any of this. Try the power snatch.
    you didnt read the thread but the OP doesn't want to do power cleans because they are a complex movement. Power snatches are (as you know) even more complex.
    Stats: Bodyweight : Current= 150 lbs, Height = 5ft11.5

    Bench Press:160 lbs/Squat:225 lbs,/Deadlift:305/Total:675lbs/

    Not strong yet, but getting there.

    Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=116786

  25. #24
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    If you don't have a specific reason for doing the Cleans (ie. sports), just do the rows. When your Bench, Squats, and Deads are up to big numbers, you aren't going to miss not doing the Cleans.
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  26. #25
    Senior Member Mr. Mustard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    If you don't have a specific reason for doing the Cleans (ie. sports), just do the rows.
    Which Rows are you referring to? Pendlay or bent over?

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