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Thread: Cap-and-Trade

  1. #76
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    I've always thought that a carbon tax makes more sense than cap-and-trade since the latter is more susceptible to on-going abuse and political games.
    But a fixed tax is harder to get around on.

    For those who'd like to read more on the subject I suggest starting here.


    http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ry_id=13697284

  2. #77
    Tap, Rack, Bacon ncsuLuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7 View Post
    The setup on Scribbs is actually very inconvenient to read. I read the last few pages...if I track down the entire article on Rolling Stone's website I'll read it in more detail.


    Essentially, it seems to claim that because Goldman does well trading in pretty much every market they enter, they would also outsmart a lot of other investors by trading carbon credits. Besides the fact that the article works under the presumption that smart trading is somehow immoral, I must have missed the author's main point.

    When you say "exploited", do you mean the fact that someone is going to make money by trading?
    I it more of how Goldman is in bed with the government and how the whole cap and trade thing is going to be another artificial bubble that Goldman will create and it will hurt all of us involved.

    Things like the government letting Lehman and Bear fail but then bailing out AIG so they can turn around and give billions to Goldman doesn't sit well with me. That and take a look at people in financial power in the this country and how many of them are former Goldman higher ups. It is no surprise that they would continue to help each other out.

    And by exploited I mean them artificially inflating the prices to the point where the bubble pops and the tax payers are the ones sitting around picking up the pieces while Goldman walks away unscathed and much richer.

  3. #78
    Current rank: Toothpick StartingAt33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0rkyd00d View Post
    The economy will be irrelevant if billions of people are displaced, agriculture is destroyed, and our planet spirals into oblivion.

    I think the tough part is that nobody really knows what's going to happen if we don't do anything, so it's difficult to convince anybody to take drastic measures with such uncertainty.

    I don't mind paying taxes to avoid extinction, though...consider it a "we ****ed up the earth and now we have to pay the price for it," tax.
    With that logic, we should scrap Social Security right now.

    If cap and tax becomes a reality, my taxes should be offset by eliminating Social Security from my paychecks so I have enough money to pay my electric bill.

    So let's make a deal. I will vote for the pollution tax if you vote to end Socialist Insecurity.
    Last edited by StartingAt33; 07-01-2009 at 07:56 AM.

  4. #79
    Current rank: Toothpick StartingAt33's Avatar
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    I also want to add that the rapid inflation spike is expected to hit us in 2012, thanks to The Fed injecting billions of stimulus dollars into the economy. (remember the 3 year rule) Couple that with the cap and trade taxes hitting at about the same time and well... you get the picture.
    Last edited by StartingAt33; 07-01-2009 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #80
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncsuLuke View Post
    I it more of how Goldman is in bed with the government and how the whole cap and trade thing is going to be another artificial bubble that Goldman will create and it will hurt all of us involved.

    Things like the government letting Lehman and Bear fail but then bailing out AIG so they can turn around and give billions to Goldman doesn't sit well with me. That and take a look at people in financial power in the this country and how many of them are former Goldman higher ups. It is no surprise that they would continue to help each other out.

    And by exploited I mean them artificially inflating the prices to the point where the bubble pops and the tax payers are the ones sitting around picking up the pieces while Goldman walks away unscathed and much richer.



    I think I did a really horrible job explaining in the prior post. The author seems to be pointing out that big players in any market can manipulate the market price to their advantage.

    This is a very valid point, and we see this in most actively-traded markets (such as oil last summer, California energy markets in the late 1990s.... the examples go back 300-400 years).


    The counterpoint is this: in markets where adults monitor the kids playing in the sandbox, it becomes difficult for a registered sex offender with a devious mustache to steal the sand.

    The argument in the article you presented (and also a similar one by occasional Congressional opponents) seems to be the following:

    "If you enact this regulation, people will simply manipulate the markets. This manipulation is allowed by deregulation in financial markets which started 12 years ago (or 30, depending on the definition)."


    The solution is pretty simple. You can create markets for pollution and re-enact the financial oversight. It would seem to me that that would at least partially solve the objection of the Rolling Stones author.



    I realize you didn't write the article, perhaps I should be explaining this to him. The logic in the article seems really twisted.

  6. #81
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StartingAt33 View Post
    I also want to add that the rapid inflation spike is expected to hit us in 2012, thanks to The Fed injecting billions of stimulus dollars into the economy. (remember the 3 year rule) Couple that with the cap and trade taxes hitting at about the same time and well... you get the picture.


    I am really stupid, because I don't get the picture. Please elaborate on the connection.

    Also, the Fed is not injecting money through "stimulus dollars". The former controls monetary policy, the "stimulus dollars" are fiscal policy controlled by the government. The two are currently working in the same direction but the Fed should have little say over the Federal Budget.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7 View Post
    Well hello there. Feel free to play semantics with Mr. Webster. I am uninterested.


    Besides, you are distracting the grown-ups; we are having a pleasant discussion.
    Wanting to know exactly what is going to be taxed is playing semantics? You'd make a great politician.

    Playing the what if game about GS involvement is adult discussion? I guess the Grassy Knoll and the Illuminati is right up your alley, huh?



    Wow.

  8. #83
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercuryblade View Post
    I was just re-reading this thread.

    Don't take this as a personal attack, but you've mentioned your skepticism with the scientific method before, but now you seem to support it when it fits within your own belief system.
    There are definitely certain things I disagree with but that doesn't meen I don't support science as a whole. I'm majoring in Biochemistry afterall, I'd hope I supported science.

    I don't really see what my own personal beliefs have to do with Al Gore having ****ty information sources however.
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  9. #84
    Smeagol on Steroids Mercuryblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    I'm majoring in Biochemistry afterall, I'd hope I supported science.
    Where you going to school? I got my BS in biochem from Iowa State.
    http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/

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