The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Cap-and-Trade

  1. #1
    Wannabe Rick James Genacide's Avatar
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    Cap-and-Trade - Say Hello to Higher Energy Bills

    IF MJ hadn't died this would probably be all over the news. I'm guessing most Americans don't even know what cap-and-trade even is.

    http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/...ill/index.html

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...est=latestnews

    What really pisses me off is this:
    The CBO analysis estimated that the bill would cost an average household $175 a year; the EPA put it at between $80 and $110 a year.
    Republicans questioned the validity of the CBO study and noted that even that analysis showed actual energy production costs increasing $770 per household. Industry groups have cited other studies showing much higher cost to the economy and to individuals.
    AND even more so:

    But Democrats argued that much of the impact on taxpayers would be offset by other provisions in the bill. Low-income consumers would qualify for credits and rebates to cushion the impact on their energy bills.
    Yes, I want to pay for someone else's even higher energy bills.

    They talk about all the jobs that this will "create", but what about all the jobs this will eliminate?

    Discuss
    Last edited by Genacide; 06-26-2009 at 11:19 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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  3. #2
    Paul killxswitch's Avatar
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    I'm all for the environment but how bout we fix the economy first before we start raping people's bank accounts?

  4. #3
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    The economy will be irrelevant if billions of people are displaced, agriculture is destroyed, and our planet spirals into oblivion.

    I think the tough part is that nobody really knows what's going to happen if we don't do anything, so it's difficult to convince anybody to take drastic measures with such uncertainty.

    I don't mind paying taxes to avoid extinction, though...consider it a "we ****ed up the earth and now we have to pay the price for it," tax.

  5. #4
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    I think this is an amazing idea. BUT I don't think right now is the time for this type of tax.

    The ONLY way things happen is if there is a reason to do it. Car emissions were lowered because of government action... industrial chemical standards were raised because of government action...

    This type of tax will fund needed research. We HAVE to become more economical with our energy, there is no quesiton about it. The transition is hard and will cost a lot of money, but has to be done.

    The only way private companies will research new methods of energy production and conservation is if there is money involved, period. This will encourage such research. People will perhaps buy that new heating system that saves on energy... or insulate their houses better with new technology.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

  6. #5
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    Michael Jackon dying as this hits circulation, Government buys GM and Republican converts to Democrat as there's an unathorized fly-over/photo-op in Manhattan. Coincidences.
    Last edited by whatdahell?; 06-26-2009 at 01:24 PM.
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  7. #6
    Smeagol on Steroids Mercuryblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatdahell? View Post
    Michael Jackon dying as this hits circulation, Government buys GM and Republican converts to Democrat as there's an unathorized fly-over/photo-op in Manhattan. Coincidences.
    You mean these events all happening within several months of eachother? Crazy, man.
    Last edited by Mercuryblade; 06-26-2009 at 01:39 PM.

  8. #7
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Its another revenue stream for the government, that is it, that is all. This will solve and prevent nothing. I want a man on the moon type program. There was just a study done in Spain, who is one of the leading countries in renewable energy sources and it costs around a million dollars per new job created and for that 1 job created, 2.2 jobs were lost. But if anyone is to lead the way, it should be the US, I would love for us to be energy independent. So I guess in order for us to get there, we need tough to swallow bills like this.
    Last edited by BilltheButcher; 06-26-2009 at 02:01 PM.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

  9. #8
    Smeagol on Steroids Mercuryblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher View Post
    Its another revenue stream for the government, that is it, that is all. This will solve and prevent nothing. I want a man on the moon type program. There was just a study done in Spain, who is one of the leading countries in renewable energy sources and it costs around a million dollars per new job created and for that 1 job created, 2.2 jobs were lost. But if anyone is to lead the way, it should be the US, I would love for us to be energy independent. So I guess in order for us to get there, we need tough to swallow bills like this.
    You are a regular word-smith, Bill.

    Also, couldn't agree with you more.

  10. #9
    Wannabe Rick James Genacide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher View Post
    Its another revenue stream for the government, that is it, that is all. This will solve and prevent nothing. I want a man on the moon type program. There was just a study done in Spain, who is one of the leading countries in renewable energy sources and it costs around a million dollars per new job created and for that 1 job created, 2.2 jobs were lost. But if anyone is to lead the way, it should be the US, I would love for us to be energy independent. So I guess in order for us to get there, we need tough to swallow bills like this.
    Nuclear... thats all I need to add. (Nuclear power that is)
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  11. #10
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercuryblade View Post
    You are a regular word-smith, Bill.

    Also, couldn't agree with you more.
    LOL, didn't even see that. I wish I could say pun intended.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

  12. #11
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Why start a thread to discuss this topic when one is not willing to listen to other points of view?

    I find most of the political threads in these forums not to be about discussion but to be about sprouting one's own political spin on a given action with an unwillingness to truly discuss. I guess that comes with the territory.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  13. #12
    Wannabe Rick James Genacide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    Why start a thread to discuss this topic when one is not willing to listen to other points of view?

    I find most of the political threads in these forums not to be about discussion but to be about sprouting one's own political spin on a given action with an unwillingness to truly discuss. I guess that comes with the territory.
    So... Do you have anything to add?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  14. #13
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    I thought that was my question?
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  15. #14
    Eat Meat teeroy's Avatar
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    There is no conclusive evidence that man-made global warming is real.

    We're in an economic recession and even though the taxes from this bill may not hit until 2010 to 2012 companies will start planning for impact of it now and it will slow the recovery at best or bring the recovery to a halt at worst.

    There is a time and a place for everything, and now is NOT the time for something like this.

    I don't think it will pass the Senate.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Just passed......

    Besides crying, all I can do is laugh at the stupidity of our government.
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    http://www.youtube.com/user/invain622002

  17. #16
    1471, gotta have it Kenny Powers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0rkyd00d View Post
    consider it a "we ****ed up the earth and now we have to pay the price for it," tax.
    based on pseudo science nonsense

    as a geologist currently working on my masters degree, i can state with confidence that no geologists i know, including my professors, buy into the hype

    the basic problem is two fold.

    1, the people making the decisions concerning the environment are politicians with absolutely no pertinent scientific background whatsoever (applies to numerous laws and disciplines)

    2, in terms of the history of the earth, this is not close to the "hottest" time ever experienced. any experienced geologist understands that in the long history of the earth, there are hot and cold cycles, which last hundreds of millions of years, not 100 years. geology changes occur over very long periods of time, and the inability of laypeople to understand this is the crux of the problem.

    the "environmental crisis" is more hype and emotional overreaction than anything. you can find hundreds of accredited scientists with no bias which will confirm the same thing

  18. #17
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    I think this is an amazing idea. BUT I don't think right now is the time for this type of tax.

    The ONLY way things happen is if there is a reason to do it. Car emissions were lowered because of government action... industrial chemical standards were raised because of government action...

    This type of tax will fund needed research. We HAVE to become more economical with our energy, there is no quesiton about it. The transition is hard and will cost a lot of money, but has to be done.

    The only way private companies will research new methods of energy production and conservation is if there is money involved, period. This will encourage such research. People will perhaps buy that new heating system that saves on energy... or insulate their houses better with new technology.
    Don't you live in Canada? I don't think you understand the way our government works, especially when money is involved.

    This will be one of the biggest tax increases ever. They've also estimated that this bill may eliminate 2 million jobs. If you think all the money from this tax will be funding "much needed research" you're sadly mistaken.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  19. #18
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
    based on pseudo science nonsense

    as a geologist currently working on my masters degree, i can state with confidence that no geologists i know, including my professors, buy into the hype

    the basic problem is two fold.

    1, the people making the decisions concerning the environment are politicians with absolutely no pertinent scientific background whatsoever (applies to numerous laws and disciplines)

    2, in terms of the history of the earth, this is not close to the "hottest" time ever experienced. any experienced geologist understands that in the long history of the earth, there are hot and cold cycles, which last hundreds of millions of years, not 100 years. geology changes occur over very long periods of time, and the inability of laypeople to understand this is the crux of the problem.

    the "environmental crisis" is more hype and emotional overreaction than anything. you can find hundreds of accredited scientists with no bias which will confirm the same thing
    Awesome post. Too bad the average american is a ****ing ****** that would rather believe Al Gore than a credited scientist.
    Best lifts: 615/475/660, Raw w/ Wraps
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  20. #19
    1471, gotta have it Kenny Powers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher View Post
    Its another revenue stream for the government, that is it, that is all. This will solve and prevent nothing. I want a man on the moon type program. There was just a study done in Spain, who is one of the leading countries in renewable energy sources and it costs around a million dollars per new job created and for that 1 job created, 2.2 jobs were lost. But if anyone is to lead the way, it should be the US, I would love for us to be energy independent. So I guess in order for us to get there, we need tough to swallow bills like this.
    i disagree

    in fact, i believe it would be easier to be "energy independent" if a few things happen.

    one, end the "environmental" restrictions on offshore drilling, which will free up massive quantities of hydrocarbons with little to no environmental impact. (proven by multiple sources, not hard to find)

    second, LESS taxes on energy companies. more taxes and lower prices result in less revenue. less revenue equals an inablity for a company to reinvest in new production, new technology, and new employees. this is why most energy companies have a hiring freeze enacted as well as struggle to economically justify new investments in offshore trends.

    energy companies depend on constantly reinvesting in new products. most offshore rigs take 5-7 years to actually produce the reserves found, and in that meantime in order to keep the company afloat, you must continue to invest in looking for more hydrocarbons, and with massively restricted cash flow due to high taxation and low prices this is impossible

    the fact is that hydrocarbons are still by far and away the most economical energy source. people complain about prices, try to power the US with ethanol (massive epic fail) or windmills and then see how much energy costs will be.

    hydrocarbon generation should be encouraged, not villified. problem is, the politicians know jack about how to run an energy company, yet feel that they are qualified to make rules and regulations for them.

    sad sad state of affairs.

  21. #20
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
    i disagree

    in fact, i believe it would be easier to be "energy independent" if a few things happen.

    one, end the "environmental" restrictions on offshore drilling, which will free up massive quantities of hydrocarbons with little to no environmental impact. (proven by multiple sources, not hard to find)

    second, LESS taxes on energy companies. more taxes and lower prices result in less revenue. less revenue equals an inablity for a company to reinvest in new production, new technology, and new employees. this is why most energy companies have a hiring freeze enacted as well as struggle to economically justify new investments in offshore trends.

    energy companies depend on constantly reinvesting in new products. most offshore rigs take 5-7 years to actually produce the reserves found, and in that meantime in order to keep the company afloat, you must continue to invest in looking for more hydrocarbons, and with massively restricted cash flow due to high taxation and low prices this is impossible

    the fact is that hydrocarbons are still by far and away the most economical energy source. people complain about prices, try to power the US with ethanol (massive epic fail) or windmills and then see how much energy costs will be.

    hydrocarbon generation should be encouraged, not villified. problem is, the politicians know jack about how to run an energy company, yet feel that they are qualified to make rules and regulations for them.

    sad sad state of affairs.
    I think it is still cheaper to get our fuel from other sources then the USA and also the oil gathered in the USA doesn't always stay in the USA. In another thread I proposed that we do a man on the moon project to find and alternative energy or alternative energy program, implement it in 15-20 years across the board by slowly phasing in parts of our daily lives, auto, home, buildings, factories etc., but in the mean time use home grown fossil fuels. It would be one big FU to the middle east.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

  22. #21
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    Why start a thread to discuss this topic when one is not willing to listen to other points of view?

    I find most of the political threads in these forums not to be about discussion but to be about sprouting one's own political spin on a given action with an unwillingness to truly discuss. I guess that comes with the territory.
    I think we listen to yours but they are always wrong b/c they aren't the same as mine.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

  23. #22
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invain View Post
    Don't you live in Canada? I don't think you understand the way our government works, especially when money is involved.

    This will be one of the biggest tax increases ever. They've also estimated that this bill may eliminate 2 million jobs. If you think all the money from this tax will be funding "much needed research" you're sadly mistaken.
    Not the money itself but consumers will want to lower their carbon footprint and as a result buy items that help that. The research will be done privately to accommodate consumers.

    But like I said, this definitely isn't the time to do it.
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 06-26-2009 at 07:21 PM.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

  24. #23
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher View Post
    I think we listen to yours but they are always wrong b/c they aren't the same as mine.
    I've very rarely ever put forth my political views.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  25. #24
    1471, gotta have it Kenny Powers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher View Post
    I think it is still cheaper to get our fuel from other sources then the USA and also the oil gathered in the USA doesn't always stay in the USA. In another thread I proposed that we do a man on the moon project to find and alternative energy or alternative energy program, implement it in 15-20 years across the board by slowly phasing in parts of our daily lives, auto, home, buildings, factories etc., but in the mean time use home grown fossil fuels. It would be one big FU to the middle east.
    i guess i dont understand why anyone would think there is energy to be found on the moon, and more importantly, how you are supposed to transport large quantities of energy from the MOON to the earth in a cost effective manner?

    how could you justify spending the amount of money on something like that with little to no supporting information, and thus a high percentage chance that your investment would be totally wasted and produce nothing?

    the problem is that none of those things you mentioned are specific. they are all general terms. you "believe" that alternative energy exists and that its cheaper.

    i ask you, based on what information?

    check the below links which highlight the reason that i KNOW that oil and gas has the potential, in fact, thats what i and a lot of other very talented scientists are working on every day from 8-5.

    i also highlight the exact reasons that oil and gas is not able to be fully explored and produced in this country in the post you quoted. in a few words, taxes, drilling restrictions, prices of oil and gas. all of which are shortsighted and we the consumer pay the price for this in the form of high energy costs.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MN6M11SN60.DTL

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090500275.html

    http://www.mms.gov/offshore/

    among many many many other publications.
    Last edited by Kenny Powers; 06-26-2009 at 09:08 PM.

  26. #25
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
    i guess i dont understand why anyone would think there is energy to be found on the moon, and more importantly, how you are supposed to transport large quantities of energy from the MOON to the earth in a cost effective manner?

    how could you justify spending the amount of money on something like that with little to no supporting information, and thus a high percentage chance that your investment would be totally wasted and produce nothing?

    the problem is that none of those things you mentioned are specific. they are all general terms. you "believe" that alternative energy exists and that its cheaper.

    i ask you, based on what information?

    check the below links which highlight the reason that i KNOW that oil and gas has the potential, in fact, thats what i and a lot of other very talented scientists are working on every day from 8-5.

    i also highlight the exact reasons that oil and gas is not able to be fully explored and produced in this country in the post you quoted. in a few words, taxes, drilling restrictions, prices of oil and gas. all of which are shortsighted and we the consumer pay the price for this in the form of high energy costs.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MN6M11SN60.DTL

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090500275.html

    http://www.mms.gov/offshore/

    among many many many other publications.
    LOL. Ok, I understand now. What I mean by man on the moon program is develop an alternative energy program similar to what Kennedy did when he proposed putting a man on the moon. I don't mean finding energy on the moon. Oh, boy.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

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