The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Since Monstar decided to flame me on my home board, I have this to ask...

    Alright, I figured I'd come to the source.

    I'll explain my position, and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong.

    I feel cleans (hang/power) to be completely useless in a bodybuilding sense, and I find that they're used for all the wrong reason. What are they besides an olympic lift?

    Perhaps they recruit numerous muscle fibers. Most assuredly they are compound.

    But how can we deny that they not only require JERKING but MOMENTUM as well to complete the motion?

    A lot of people also say they help develope "power" and "explosiveness" but I wholeheartedly disagree. If you want to gain STRENGTH, use heavy weight.

    If you want to get power (work divided by time) train using plyometrics or PRACTICE the movement you're doing (ie, if you need to jump high, practice jumping, don't practice exploding on leg press).

    I hear a lot of "they made my traps huge" etc etc.

    Why not just do deadlifts? I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can correlate an olympic strength movement and justifiably put it in a bodybuilding routine and say it will do much of anything.

    It may give you explosive COORDINATION, but I fail to see what other benefits it possesses that could not be gained from other, better movements.

    Oh, and MonStar, watch your tongue sometimes buddy, I have little patience for you flaming me.

    Thorazine

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  3. #2
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Thorazine-
    I didnt mean to flame you at all - nor did I know that that was your home board or whatever. I was simply giving my opinion. I think that hang cleans and power cleans are an effective movement for your traps, delts, rhomboids, and even lats and lower back. I didnt say one word about deadlifts not being effective for building your traps so I dont know where you come off saying that.

    I just didnt think it made sense for you to post how hang cleans and power cleans were a "total waste for bodybuilders." Hang cleans and power cleans are and can be effective if performed correctly. No flame intended.

    MS

  4. #3
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    I believe the term was, "At least have a little self respect if you're going to post something that unintelligent" or something along those lines.

    Real diplomatic.

    Also, I fail to see them containing anything worthwhile to a bodybuilder and to increasing muscle density and mass.

    So I'd just like to find out from those who know.

    Thorazine

  5. #4
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    They can build muscle. They can also assist other lifts. I don't currently do them but i wouldn't not do them.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  6. #5
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    cat fight...meow

  7. #6
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Thorazine-
    They can definitely build muscle and muscle density and can easily apply to bodybuilding. If you would take your head out of your a*s and stop being so close-minded you might learn a thing or two.

    MS

  8. #7
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    flame numba 2!

  9. #8
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    I am not trying to flame I am just sick of Thorazine's comments/reasoning. NO exercise should be ruled out completely. If you can progress and improve etc. than its an exercise that could stimulate hypertrophy. Not, "oh this exericse uses momentum, it doesnt work in bodybuilding."

    MS
    Last edited by MonStar; 04-21-2002 at 11:01 AM.

  10. #9
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    ill call that flame numba 2.5

  11. #10
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    I am not trying to flame anyone.

    MS
    Last edited by MonStar; 04-21-2002 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #11
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    Get my head out of MY ass, eh?

    Then why don't we do hip-lunging back-arching bicep curls? Hell, THEY use momentum, but they could also induce hypertrophy!

    With MonStar's logic and reasoning, we'll get big in no time!

    Well MonStar, prove me wrong with your line of logic, this should be cute.

    Thorazine

  13. #12
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    2 and half for monstar, 1 for thor.

  14. #13
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    I just PROVED my point MonStar.

    You have PROVEN nothing. You say "just because it uses momentum doesn't mean it's NOT suited for bodybuilding".

    Yet how come we don't use momentum for nearly ALL other lifts? How come jerking and thrusting and whatnot is a big no-no with every other movement?

    Please EXPLAIN to me why it is ok for cleans but not good for something like bicep curls. That's all I want to know.

    I mean, a clean is basically a deadlift transfered into an upright row with a nice little jerk then a shoulder press. Why not just do deads, upright rows, and a shoulder press, with the same results, SANS the danger, SANS the momentum, and more likely a BETTER chance at putting on muscle mass.

    Thorazine
    Last edited by Thorazine; 04-21-2002 at 11:11 AM.

  15. #14
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Then why don't we do hip-lunging back-arching bicep curls? Hell, THEY use momentum, but they could also induce hypertrophy!

    I am through replying to this immature bullsh*t. I cant even talk to you bro I mine as well talk to a brickwall. Youre wasting time trying to make a point that you and I both know doesnt exist. Honestly youre trying to validate the idea that hang cleans and power cleans are useless for a bodybuilder, and theyre not. Hang cleans especially have worked well at bringing up my traps, along with deadlifts, and shrugs. I never said that the MOST momentous exercises built the most muscle, I simply said that they shouldnt be ruled out. Youre ruling them out for no real reason at all. Its obvious that your reasoning makes no sense.

    The only reason that I replied in the first place is because I would hate to see new guys to bodybuilding or training, etc. read that hang cleans and power cleans are a complete waste in bodybuilding. And theyll obviously listen because its from a Moderator at a largely populated message board. Its one thing to keep your bullsh*t theories to yourself but its another to pronounce them like theyre facts.

    MS

  16. #15
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thorazine
    Yet how come we don't use momentum for nearly ALL other lifts? How come jerking and thrusting and whatnot is a big no-no with every other movement?

    Momentum is used in every lift that isn't isometric. Momentum (p) = mass*velocity. You may argue that muscular tension is lessened by using "momentum," but that greater velocity had to come from somewhere-- in this case, muscular tension.

    Please EXPLAIN to me why it is ok for cleans but not good for something like bicep curls. That's all I want to know.


    I happen to do my heavy sets of curls with a degree of "cheat" just for that very reason. Not excessive back curl, but some. I could say the same for several other excerises as well.

    I mean, a clean is basically a deadlift transfered into an upright row with a nice little jerk then a shoulder press. Why not just do deads, upright rows, and a shoulder press, with the same results, SANS the danger, SANS the momentum, and more likely a BETTER chance at putting on muscle mass.


    Danger? Not if you've got a fair understanding of what you're doing. Momentum? I've already explained why that's not neccessarily bad. Better? Well, seeing as ballistic movements target high-threshold MU's that have a high fatiguability, and thus potential to grow, I don't see that "better" would be the operative term.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  17. #16
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    i think its like 5 on 4 now

  18. #17
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    oh wait we got another contender now

  19. #18
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    There we go Thorazine, Ill be the first to admit that I dont know the science and muscular physiology behind my reasoning which obviously puts me in a weak position, but PowerMan does.

    MS

  20. #19
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    Hey bro, you started it, and now you can't even end it.

    You have yet to say anything to convince me they're worthwhile, yet I've provided a lot of insight and information on why they ARE NOT.

    I'm ruling them out for a lot of reasons.

    1) They're dangerous
    2) They require a lot of momentum and jerking (even if you do them 100% properly)
    3) Having a strong clean doesn't equate into any other exercise.
    4) Having a strong clean doesn't correlate to having explosive power
    5) Why bother doing this maneuver when you COULD be doing it in 3 seperate, safer, and more productive movements?

    I dont' see any fault in that logic. But you're beat, so that's ok.

    It's one thing to PRONOUNCE YOUR bullshit theories as facts, but it's another to not even back them up.

    Thorazine

  21. #20
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    uh its 5-5-3 powerman your trailin behind

  22. #21
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thorazine

    I'm ruling them out for a lot of reasons.

    1) They're dangerous


    As compared to? Deadlifts? Squats?

    2) They require a lot of momentum and jerking (even if you do them 100% properly)


    What's your point?

    3) Having a strong clean doesn't equate into any other exercise.

    Neither does having a strong overhead press, bench press, deadlift, etc. Again, what's your point?

    4) Having a strong clean doesn't correlate to having explosive power


    Sure it does, since by nature having a strong clean means having explosive strength.

    5) Why bother doing this maneuver when you COULD be doing it in 3 seperate, safer, and more productive movements?


    Why bother deadlifting when you could just do squats, shrugs, back extensions, and grip work?

    I dont' see any fault in that logic. But you're beat, so that's ok.

    It's one thing to PRONOUNCE YOUR bullshit theories as facts, but it's another to not even back them up.


    See above.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  23. #22
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    Ah, hide behind PowerMan, atta boy.

    You know very well what I meant when I said momentum powerman.

    I disagree with your use of "cheating" on bicep curls, however. What's to stop someone from "swinging" the weight up, your analogy falls short there. He's using momentum in his favor, and he's doing very little work.

    I wouldn't mind some elaboration on the high threshold MU's as well, and how and exactly why only ballistic movements can activate them.

    Thanks,

    Thorazine

  24. #23
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    1) They're dangerous

    Theyre not dangerous if theyre performed correctly. That goes for any exercise though. I mean think about it, the first few times you do deadlifts or squats or any exercise, you have to get your form down and become accustomed to the exercise.

    2) They require a lot of momentum and jerking (even if you do them 100% properly)

    They do not require as much momentum as I think you believe. I have done hang cleans for a little while now and it should be one smooth movement. Just like bench presses or OH presses, etc.

    3) Having a strong clean doesn't equate into any other exercise.

    Improving your clean strength will in turn help strengthen your traps especially which will aid in strengthening your deadlift, etc.

    4) Having a strong clean doesn't correlate to having explosive power

    No one ever argued this at all. This is something that you keep reminding us of that has nothing to do with the subject.

    5) Why bother doing this maneuver when you COULD be doing it in 3 seperate, safer, and more productive movements?

    I "bother" doing these I do them because they effectively stimulate my traps.

    MS

  25. #24
    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    i lost count

  26. #25
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    Wow, all this in an hour, this isn't going to be pretty...
    Obstacles are what you see when you take your mind off the goal.
    -Unknown

    Energy and persistence conquer all things.
    -Benjamin Franklin

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