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Thread: Canadian health care

  1. #1
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Canadian health care

    For the past 3-4 months I've been visiting the doctor quite often. First for my knee, than for a blood test, and now because I have a bad cough. I went to the walk in clinic today (which is also Canadian Thanksgiving weekend) and was surprised to see that there was only one other person there. I gave my information and sat down. I was in and out of the place in almost no time at all (30 min). The past 4-5 doctor visits ive been to have been this way. I even got an X-ray after 5 min of waiting.

    The Canadian health care system like every health care system has its flaws, but I am impressed with the quality. When my grandmother had a stroke she was on the operating table the second she got to the hospital. When my brother had a Crohns attack he was cared for instantly... all covered by government health care. I can only speak for myself but I have yet to experience severe problems with our health care system. As for the quality of health care... I can't complain. Just thought I would share my government health care experiences in this crucial time for you Americans.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

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    haha thanx for sharing
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    ANVIL POWER Detard's Avatar
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    **** dude ur lucky. Every time I go to the hospital, I have to wait like 6 hours. Just to get ****in stiches
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    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Anything that can be solved at a medi-clinic is usually pretty quick.

    Major stuff at a hospital is cared for very quick as well. Relatively minor stuff at a hospital will have you waiting HOURS...

    It's the people who have chronic illnesses or pains that are not immediately life threatening that get the shaft in our system. Ie: My fiancee's knee was ****ed up for like 7 years before she finally got in for the surgery to fix it. My step dad has been on a waiting list for almost 2 years to see a specialist for his back. He keeps getting bumped down the list by people who were in accidents or whatever else...

    I've had a bunch of xrays and stitches at the hospital and for all that stuff I don't think I've ever waited less than 4 hours. I went to the hospital once with a major injury and I was brought straight to a room with a doctor waiting in it.
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    So you think it's improving? The Canadians I've met here all have told me how much they would've had to wait and their general displeasure with the care they got when they lived back home. But they've all been here for more than 3 years so...

    Health insurance is heavily subsidized here as well, costs me less than $5USD to see the doctor sometimes here. And the taxes are much lower here than Canada so much less is going out of my pocket for actual treatment and care. But I have been less than impressed with the quality of care and effectiveness of the doctors here in general.
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    A waiting period is better than no waiting period. No system is perfect but some do seem better and more cost efficient than others.

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    The British health care system has its problems but the best thing about it in my opinion is cheap prescriptions! 5-6 in England for any prescription saves you a ton of money if you have to take something regularly or need inhalers if you're asthmatic or something. And in Scotland and Wales they're now free! Free! I remember falling ill in America once and paying like $200 for a simple diagnosis and months supply of pills. It was a big shock.

    What's the deal with prescription medication in Canada?

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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    The British health care system has its problems but the best thing about it in my opinion is cheap prescriptions! 5-6 in England for any prescription saves you a ton of money if you have to take something regularly or need inhalers if you're asthmatic or something. And in Scotland and Wales they're now free! Free! I remember falling ill in America once and paying like $200 for a simple diagnosis and months supply of pills. It was a big shock.

    What's the deal with prescription medication in Canada?
    It isn't free unless you have extra health care but the prescription medication is still a hell of a lot cheaper than in the US. I heard that a month prescription of accutane in the US without insurance can cost well over 400 dollars depending on your bodyweight. Here in Canada it costs about 100-150 dollars per month. Still not cheap, but a hell of a lot better.

    Because I am a student though I get student health care. I bought a prescription that would have cost about 40 dollars but it was only 7 with the plan. I also get some dental and physiotherapy covered.
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 10-11-2009 at 11:41 AM.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

  9. #9
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    Two things:

    1.) How much do prescription (bottle) bills factor in to the US's calculated health care cost per capita? Because it seems like it's possible that the reason that our health care industry is supposedly so expensive might be in some part due to the high cost of prescription...

    and

    2.) How do they decide if someone's illness is actually worth operating on? If someone is considered terminal then are the doors pretty much shut on them? Can you get a last resort high-scale (and expensive) private procedure done if you really need to? Legally?
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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d'Anconia View Post
    Two things:

    1.) How much do prescription (bottle) bills factor in to the US's calculated health care cost per capita? Because it seems like it's possible that the reason that our health care industry is supposedly so expensive might be in some part due to the high cost of prescription...

    and

    2.) How do they decide if someone's illness is actually worth operating on? If someone is considered terminal then are the doors pretty much shut on them? Can you get a last resort high-scale (and expensive) private procedure done if you really need to? Legally?
    If someone is considered terminal I can only assume they would either keep them on life support until they die or ask the patient if they would be open to untested procedures.

    There are private clinics but they are of course, extremely expensive. My family isn't rich or poor and if we wanted to I am sure we could go to private clinics... but really the majority of people (with or without money) do not resort to private health care here in Canada. Private clinics are an issue because the private sector chews up doctors that could be helping a health care system already lacking in qualified personnel. The "intrusion" of private health care in a public health care system causes more problems than the "intrusion" of public health care in a private health care system. That's my input at least.
    Last edited by BFGUITAR; 10-11-2009 at 05:11 PM.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

  11. #11
    Zeebo. Southern Beast's Avatar
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    I couldn't imagine how terrible healthcare would be in America if it were government run. I've been to the ER a few times over the past couple of years for injuries/illness that certainly justified going, and it's always packed. Hate to judge a book by it's cover, but most people looked terrible messy, white trash, ghetto, and several didn't seem to have any urgent concern. They already have programs if you cannot pay they can help make arrangements and do lower cost depending on what hospital you go to. I've been to my doctor for shots and other appointments I had twice this year, and no visit has been over $60, and that's including the shots. I didn't have insurance any time during the past year and it's never been expensive at all. Rarely the medicines I've been prescribed have been costly, and when they have, they always ask me if I'm interested in their discount program or some payment option if I can't afford it all today.

    I just don't see a need for any government run healthcare in America.
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    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    @ SouthernBeast is that a story of the American or Canadian (or other?) health care system?

    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    There are private clinics but they are of course, extremely expensive. My family isn't rich or poor and if we wanted to I am sure we could go to private clinics... but really the majority of people (with or without money) do not resort to private health care here in Canada. Private clinics are an issue because the private sector chews up doctors that could be helping a health care system already lacking in qualified personnel. The "intrusion" of private health care in a public health care system causes more problems than the "intrusion" of public health care in a private health care system. That's my input at least.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm an American and don't know the complete history of health care in Canada but isn't it a bit backward to call the existence of private run health care in your system an "intrusion"? I mean I would assume things started off privately run before becoming more state-run, right? Private doctors were most likely just trying to make money to support their families before the government came in and forcefully imposed all these rules as to how health care could be run.

    The idea that there is a shortage of doctors somehow due in part to the selfishness or greed of doctors seems a bit skeptical. Do you think the government and media might have it in their interest to push anti-private (for lack of a better term) stories and whatnot to push the tide of public opinion against the private sector and find more support for the government to gain more control/power over the industry?

    I mean because if the government really was in a hurry to increase the supply of doctors they could just decrease the barriers to entry... at least that is what I would think.

    I don't know man, call me crazy but if the private sector, the voluntary side of the market, is being widely considered as the intrusive side of the market rather than the public side then that makes me wonder just how far down the rabbit hole the perception of health care is up there.
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    Zeebo. Southern Beast's Avatar
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    American for me.
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    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d'Anconia View Post
    @ SouthernBeast is that a story of the American or Canadian (or other?) health care system?



    Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm an American and don't know the complete history of health care in Canada but isn't it a bit backward to call the existence of private run health care in your system an "intrusion"? I mean I would assume things started off privately run before becoming more state-run, right? Private doctors were most likely just trying to make money to support their families before the government came in and forcefully imposed all these rules as to how health care could be run.

    The idea that there is a shortage of doctors somehow due in part to the selfishness or greed of doctors seems a bit skeptical. Do you think the government and media might have it in their interest to push anti-private (for lack of a better term) stories and whatnot to push the tide of public opinion against the private sector and find more support for the government to gain more control/power over the industry?

    I mean because if the government really was in a hurry to increase the supply of doctors they could just decrease the barriers to entry... at least that is what I would think.

    I don't know man, call me crazy but if the private sector, the voluntary side of the market, is being widely considered as the intrusive side of the market rather than the public side then that makes me wonder just how far down the rabbit hole the perception of health care is up there.
    I used the word intrusion only because private health care in Canada hurts public health care. I couldn't think of a better word to use. And yes, pre-WW2 I am pretty sure health care was private. Like every developed country on the planet, Canada decided to have government run health care.

    Technicians who work with MRI or CT machines divide their time between public and private clinics. Such technicians are already on short supply and the private sector eats up much of these peoples time. In Canada we don't have the luxury of having a large population... and the population we do have is extremely spread out. The state of California has a greater population than all of Canada. The last thing we need are private clinics hording resources in the cities when they can be used in places that actually need them.

    If there were enough resources to go around, the private sector would not conflict with the public sector. But then again... if there were enough resources to go around we wouldn't need a private sector

    The Canadian government does not need to worry about losing power over the health care system. The current health care system would have to utterly fail for Canadians to demand private health care. As far as I know, doctors are very welcome here in Canada. In fact, doctors who graduate here in Canada are offered a job with a very nice house in cities lacking in doctors. Of course they have to work there for a certain amount of time, but I cannot imagine a better way to start off a career. The government is that desperate to get doctors.

    As for decreasing the barriers... there are enough people applying to fill all the positions at medical schools. The barrier isn't the problem... the problem is that all the doctors who graduate here move to the US because it pays more. An American doctor can make 60 dollars for a certain procedure yet the same doctor in Canada may only make 20. This can be looked at in two different ways... Either the Canadian government is ripping off doctors or the doctors in the US are ripping off the public. And even if the Canadian government is ripping off doctors I don't see them suffering in any way... they still have nice houses and nice cars.

    Again, your looking at health care from an American perspective where the private sector dominates. Here in Canada public health care has had 60-70 years to grow and develop and become part of the country. If you were to take a poll and ask 100 average Canadians if they are satisfied with their health care, I am certain that more of them would be satisfied than if you asked 100 Americans with their health care.
    Brad08 has some insight for people who don't understand... anything.
    This is so ****ing ******ed it's almost beyond belief. So, if you eat 3k, you will automatically gain 3k worth of fat or muscle? Incredible. And here I am eating all this food, yet maintaining my weight. Fascinating.

    You're one of those pussies that counts his almonds I bet.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    Again, your looking at health care from an American perspective where the private sector dominates. Here in Canada public health care has had 60-70 years to grow and develop and become part of the country. If you were to take a poll and ask 100 average Canadians if they are satisfied with their health care, I am certain that more of them would be satisfied than if you asked 100 Americans with their health care.
    Actually if you asked 100 Americans about their health care, 18 of them wouldn't even have care. Except of course to convienently use the e-room when something finally gives up. Of course there are those Americans with health care like my late aunt, who was denied tests for cancer by Aetna because it was "unnecessary". Ironic that she was in a casket a year later. Private sector wealth incentives do wonders with peoples health don't they?

    Of course after giving your personal experience with Canadian health care, there are many eager to tell you how bad you really have it, and how much you really suffer BF.
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    Senior Member MonsterZero's Avatar
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    You guys are silly....

    Horror stories abound in the health care debate, usually against free enterprise. emotions color logic.

    In a country like Canada, i'm sure your nanny-state health care is of good/decent quality as your Fed budget has alot of fat.

    In USA, we spend billions upon billions (on credit) in the military/industrial machine, let alone our overcrowded prisons, keeping foreign countries afloat, etc....that we really have no money left to use. This is IMHO.

    Edit: some figures

    2009 expenditures:

    USA - $515.4 billion - United States Department of Defense
    Canada - $258.6 billion - ALL CANADIAN PUBLIC EXPENDITURES
    Last edited by MonsterZero; 10-12-2009 at 04:07 PM.

  17. #17
    I drink your milkshake twm's Avatar
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    whoa, lets not bring facts into the discussion, monster. certainly scale doesn't affect something like public healthcare.

    seriously though, i would love a healthcare system such as that of canada -- as long as it doesn't cost me anything additional in taxes whatsoever.
    Last edited by twm; 10-12-2009 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #18
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
    You guys are silly....

    Horror stories abound in the health care debate, usually against free enterprise. emotions color logic.

    In a country like Canada, i'm sure your nanny-state health care is of good/decent quality as your Fed budget has alot of fat.

    In USA, we spend billions upon billions (on credit) in the military/industrial machine, let alone our overcrowded prisons, keeping foreign countries afloat, etc....that we really have no money left to use. This is IMHO.

    Edit: some figures

    2009 expenditures:

    USA - $515.4 billion - United States Department of Defense
    Canada - $258.6 billion - ALL CANADIAN PUBLIC EXPENDITURES
    US Federal Government Receipts: $2.52 Trillion...That makes Canada's revenues look like drops in a bucket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    Again, your looking at health care from an American perspective where the private sector dominates. Here in Canada public health care has had 60-70 years to grow and develop and become part of the country. If you were to take a poll and ask 100 average Canadians if they are satisfied with their health care, I am certain that more of them would be satisfied than if you asked 100 Americans with their health care.
    Similar in the UK. Don't get me wrong, there are always problems with hospital waiting lists and underfunding, but on the whole people are glad to have the National Health Service. Its been around a long time and looked after its citizens (like a government is supposed to do) satisfactorily for a long time. During the summer, when that British politician announced on FOX news that he wouldn't wish the NHS on an enemy there was a pretty big uproar over here. I remember listening to the radio at work going "what?! Who is this guy?" He was actually asked by his party head to apologise to the thousands of hard-working medical staff dedicating their lives to it. I think the guy was just so upper-class he's probably never been exposed to it and instead felt like making wild claims so that FOX would love him...

    Having seen some excerpts from American newspapers during all this that painted a ridiculous view of the health care in the UK, Canada, and other countries, I'd say there is a pretty skewed vision being propagated by elements of the right-wing media. Like BFGuitar says, most people are glad to have government-run health care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twm View Post
    seriously though, i would love a healthcare system such as that of canada -- as long as it doesn't cost me anything additional in taxes whatsoever.
    Ha ha! That's brilliant - I kind of feel the same.

    Seeing as though everyone is used to the situation they've got (whichever side of the coin that it) it's always going to be hard to imagine the other. Britain could sure do with freeing up some resources... but I still want cheap prescriptions.

  21. #21
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Everyone in Canada and UK have had their system for a long time, so they know nothing of private healthcare. US people have always had private health insurance and they know nothing of universal coverage. Speaking as an American I am scared of government run anything and I am scared of increased taxes and what it will do to jobs and increased size of government. I also am very nervous of this study that came out (which may be skewed and if you agree that it may be skewed then you need to agree that the gov't numbers are probably skewed also): http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091012/D9B9QLO81.html - if this is true then I don't see how anything will get passed.

  22. #22
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    I used the word intrusion only because private health care in Canada hurts public health care. I couldn't think of a better word to use. And yes, pre-WW2 I am pretty sure health care was private. Like every developed country on the planet, Canada decided to have government run health care.
    And public health care doesn't have any negative consequences?

    Technicians who work with MRI or CT machines divide their time between public and private clinics. Such technicians are already on short supply and the private sector eats up much of these peoples time. In Canada we don't have the luxury of having a large population... and the population we do have is extremely spread out. The state of California has a greater population than all of Canada. The last thing we need are private clinics hording resources in the cities when they can be used in places that actually need them.
    Are doctors required at all to do work at public facilities (ie for the public health system)? The reason a doctor would prefer at any given time doing private work over public work is because the public sector does not give them enough incentive (usually meaning salary/income/money). This is expected since doctors (and people in general) tend to make logical decisions.

    If there were enough resources to go around, the private sector would not conflict with the public sector. But then again... if there were enough resources to go around we wouldn't need a private sector
    And if the public system paid doctors and technicians more then there would be more resources.

    The Canadian government does not need to worry about losing power over the health care system. The current health care system would have to utterly fail for Canadians to demand private health care. As far as I know, doctors are very welcome here in Canada. In fact, doctors who graduate here in Canada are offered a job with a very nice house in cities lacking in doctors. Of course they have to work there for a certain amount of time, but I cannot imagine a better way to start off a career. The government is that desperate to get doctors.
    *Losing* power and *not gaining* power are not the same thing. I don't think very many public health systems in general are going to lose any power over time, barring drastic political change. Governments want more power over just about every industry that they can get away with because that means more government spending they get to allocate and also more lobbyist money.

    As for decreasing the barriers... there are enough people applying to fill all the positions at medical schools. The barrier isn't the problem... the problem is that all the doctors who graduate here move to the US because it pays more. An American doctor can make 60 dollars for a certain procedure yet the same doctor in Canada may only make 20. This can be looked at in two different ways... Either the Canadian government is ripping off doctors or the doctors in the US are ripping off the public. And even if the Canadian government is ripping off doctors I don't see them suffering in any way... they still have nice houses and nice cars.
    You're not getting what I'm saying. If it were easier to become doctors OR if the public health system offered more incentives to doctors then more people would want to become doctors. More people wanting to become doctors would mean higher costs of education for those positions in medical school and that would mean greater profits for universities/medical schools which would cause the schools to increase the number of positions and accepted applicants. You're talking as if the number of available spots at medical schools is fixed.

    Again, your looking at health care from an American perspective where the private sector dominates. Here in Canada public health care has had 60-70 years to grow and develop and become part of the country. If you were to take a poll and ask 100 average Canadians if they are satisfied with their health care, I am certain that more of them would be satisfied than if you asked 100 Americans with their health care.
    [/QUOTE]

    But public education and the media have a huge impact on how satisfied or unsatisfied the public is with something. If the government and media constantly boasted about how the health system is in a certain country then that would increase public satisfaction with that system. The government in just about any country is going to tend to criticize the private system while boasting the advantages of the public system because the government naturally will a.) want more power over that industry and b.) want the public to view them (the government) as competent as possible (this would also help guarantee public backing of government endeavors into other private sectors).

    You can't look at the health care issue without taking economics into consideration. The doctors who head down to the US apparently think that Americans are willing to offer them a better life so exactly how you can see that as the US doing something bad is beyond me.

    I'm still trying to figure out how the Canadian public health system decides whether or not to do chemo or other treatments on someone who might have terminal cancer. How do they make that decision on whether or not someone gets treatment? How do they decide whether or not to spend the government money on that person?
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  23. #23
    Senior Member MonsterZero's Avatar
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    Private enterprise is more efficient and cheaper than public-supported program. This is conclusive in too many studies to number (google Basic economics)

    The reason there is so much hooplah over the U.S. getting public healthcare is because the system is so bloated. You're talking x
    billion dollars and x million jobs at stake, not to mention all off the suppliers and their jobs, the schools and their incentives to promote medical students, and on and on.....

    Govt. healthcare works in Europe and Canada because, as BF and drummer said, the systems been around long enough the system to streamline. And it will probably never work successfully in USA because, as taxpayers, we really can't pay for any more bull****. The second Obama cuts the military by 2/3 and tells his lobbyists to eat his ass, then i will support USA socialized healthcare.







    ...JK i will never support socialized healthcare, based purely on principle. I dont want to pay for some doods vicodins, or this ladies abortions (even tough we already do). No TY.
    Last edited by MonsterZero; 10-12-2009 at 07:48 PM.

  24. #24
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Ok I'm really sick of this debate...anyone citing "basic economics" as a basis for private enterprise in the healthcare industry has NO CLUE how to connect incentives to utility. NONE, ZERO. I think most of the recent posters have never delved in to econ enough to be qualified to speak on it.
    "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."- Quran 16:25

    "A life unexamined is not worth living"- Socrates

  25. #25
    Senior Member MonsterZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    Ok I'm really sick of this debate...anyone citing "basic economics" as a basis for private enterprise in the healthcare industry has NO CLUE how to connect incentives to utility. NONE, ZERO.
    that statement was a generalization. im sorry i pissed you off.

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