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Thread: intermittent fasting..

  1. #1
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    intermittent fasting..

    I tried to run a search on IF but couldn't find anything worthwhile. This one goes out to the experienced nutritionist/dieters..

    I know there are some toss-ups as to the benefit of IF. One of the best benefits is the increase in insulin sensitivity.

    We all hate dieting. I'm carb cycling right now and seem to be doing a pretty good job at maintaining my weight because I keep ****ing everything up on the weekends, lol.

    I was at a triad group with some of the guys from my church last night and they were talking about fasting. Well, I mentally drifted off the subject and started thinking about IF and the success I had with it last year.. I also remember reading over BR a different approach to IF as to recomp or bulk.... and yes, I frequently daydream off about my training and diet while in mid-conversation with people, haha..

    So I'm thinking about utilizing intermittent fasting for my recomp/cut. I'm currently 280lbs and I'd like to get down to 250-255ish by january/february and ultimately down to 242 by june. These are actually very simple goals and I could probably get down to 242 by february, but at what expense, muscle loss.. So, the problem is I still want to get stronger in the mean time. I'm thinking with the way I have this set-up, it is a strong possibility and I can get the best of both worlds, drop in bodyfat and increase in strength.

    I'm going to be training on saturday and sunday's, then again on tuesdays and thursdays. This would make an almost ideal setup for IF as Lyle advised to set it up (without the full body workouts, though).

    Right now I'm doing 3700 cals on training days and about 2900 cals on off days. So, saturday and sunday would be 3700 cals each and would be a "normal" day. This would be good because the higher carbs on the weekedn allows me to get a little sloppy without going over total macros&cals. Monday is an off day and would therefore also be a "normal" eat day at about 2600-2700 cals. I would stop eating around 9-10p as I normally would. Tuesday I might do some light cardio in the morning with some caffeine, but no calories would be consumed prior to approx 530-6pm which is when I would have my pre-workout shake (normally is about 70/75/0 p/c/f). I would train, then come home, have my post-workout shake and then proceed to consume 3700-3900 cals (including the pre and post workout shakes) until the following day at approx 8-9pm (which is now wednesday). Thursday is another training day so I would approach this the same day as tuesday, IF until 530-6p then pre workout shake, training, post workout shake then cals until friday evening at 8-9pm.

    So, here's how it would look.

    Saturday - 3700cals
    Sunday - 3700cals (training at 6a), stop eating at 10p
    Monday - 2200cals (keto-ish 225p/100c/100f) between 6-10p
    Tuesday/Wednesday - 3700-3900cals between 6p tuesday and 9p wednesday including shakes
    Thursday/Friday - 3700-3900cals between 6p thursday and 9p saturday

    I will probably bump protein to 350-400g between the 26-28hours of food consumption before the IF as I typically have 325g in a 24 hour period. The point of consuming the majority of calories the day after the fast is for training recovery.

    If I calculate a weekly calorie intake it would look like this:

    3700+
    3700+
    2200+
    3900+
    3900+
    17,400cals..

    compared to a typical week for me
    3700+
    3700+
    3700+
    3700+
    2900+
    2900+
    2900+
    23,500cals..

    That results in a 6,100 calorie deficit from where I currently am (which is approximately maintenance, maybe a tidbit below).

    So, I'm factoring in for recovery, I'm loading up a big shake pre-workout for energy. It should help my insulin sensitivity and nutrient partioning. It's only fasting for 3 days per week with the utilization of sleep, Not eating until 6pm will be pretty easy and 3 of the days per week are pretty high calories. 1 day is lower cals but it's 2200 cals in a 3-4 hour window so I can stuff myself pretty good.

    By eating over maintenance during training recovery combined with 18-22hrs of IF, I'm thinking this should allow me to cut weight slowly without affecting my training.

    What are your thoughts about this? Do you think there will be a LBM sacrifice? Strength hinderance? What problems do you see? What benefits do you see?

    I'm looking to start this on 10/19 but regardless, I'm curious as to the other nutrition guru's input.

    Now discuss!!




    ps, no I have not done any recent research on IF. I'm just going by memory of when I read through the multi-page threads at BR last year.
    Jake Sullivan
    6' - 280lbs - 29yrs old - Professional Highland Games Athlete
    curently off-season
    HG training log = road to pro
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  2. #2
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    38 views and no responses.. what happened to all the nutritionists we used to have here?
    Jake Sullivan
    6' - 280lbs - 29yrs old - Professional Highland Games Athlete
    curently off-season
    HG training log = road to pro
    youtube channel = www.youtube.com/xtra0t

  3. #3
    Senior Member Doobs's Avatar
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    LOL unless we get slim and built back in here, I don't know that you're going to get any help. I'm interested, but don't know enough to provide any info. Do you find that stopping eating at 10pm gives you an advantage over eating right up until bedtime?

  4. #4
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    LOL, I posted this over at BLC where slim and built frequent and still haven't gotten a response. Maybe I should just PM her.

    I go to bed around 10pm, so that's no issue or advantage. I'm just trying to get others' thoughts on this IF. I'm pretty confident it will work quite well, I'm just looking for others input as well.
    Jake Sullivan
    6' - 280lbs - 29yrs old - Professional Highland Games Athlete
    curently off-season
    HG training log = road to pro
    youtube channel = www.youtube.com/xtra0t

  5. #5
    Ex-Manwhore KingWilder's Avatar
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    Most people will only have general knowledge of IF. Your goals are VERY specific. Honestly, if you can afford to, I would check out www.LeanGains.com (SFW) and have Martin put together something for you.
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    Chubbilicious. VikingWarlord's Avatar
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    I've read that post 4 times and still have NO idea what your proposed fasting schedule actually is. I don't know the BR thread you're mentioning but this proposal seems unnecessarily complicated.

    Now you said you had success with IF before and I'm going to guess it was a more "normal" 16/8 or 18/6 type of schedule (I use 20/4 or 21/3 depending how I feel each day). If that's the case, why not just go with that? I've found that it's easier to maintain a more regular schedule since it requires a lot less thought.
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  7. #7
    OG SDS's Avatar
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    I don't fast, but every now and then I'll eat very little for a day or two. Like today.....
    Yesterday I felt a little off......bloated, rumbly stomach, gassy, low energy, etc. So today I'm eating broth, crackers and sprite zero. I'm already feeling better. This happens sometimes when I'm really trying to bulk. I'll just sort of get bogged down under all the food. I guess my GI system needs a break from time to time.
    Last edited by SDS; 10-08-2009 at 03:23 PM.

  8. #8
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingWarlord View Post
    I've read that post 4 times and still have NO idea what your proposed fasting schedule actually is. I don't know the BR thread you're mentioning but this proposal seems unnecessarily complicated.

    Now you said you had success with IF before and I'm going to guess it was a more "normal" 16/8 or 18/6 type of schedule (I use 20/4 or 21/3 depending how I feel each day). If that's the case, why not just go with that? I've found that it's easier to maintain a more regular schedule since it requires a lot less thought.
    I did have success with IF before, and was using more of a 21/3 and 22/2 schedule, but I did lose a good bit of strength. What I have proposed LOOKS complicated but it's really quite simple.

    If you've read any of the in-dept threads on BR's forum where Lyle advises how to go about IF'ing to get solid cut results he says it is ideal to do full body workouts with a day between for rest. He advises to IF until the evening of your workout, hit up a pre workout shake then go workout. Once you get home, have your post workout shake and then proceed to eat your calories through the night and the following whole day for recovery purposes. Then start IF again that evening which will carry into the following day's training in which you would start that cycle all over again. Really the only thing different I'm doing is not the full body workout. I'm trying to maximize strength gains during recovery while staying in an overall deficit due to the IF.

    It's very difficult on paper, but is much easier to explain in person. There are 48 hours in 2 days. You began fasting "last night" so today has started and you take your pre-workout shake at 1800hrs (6pm) then go workout. This is when you're recovery cals will begin you eat/drink your calories just like a normal day from 1800hrs (6pm) until 4500hrs (9pm the following night) in which you begin fasting once more. So, essentially, you'll be fasting for 22 hours.

    I'll be IFing monday, tuesday and thursday, the rest of the days are pretty much normal intake.

    Man this is hard to explain. Marci seemed to understand it well. lol..
    Last edited by JSully; 10-08-2009 at 03:24 PM.
    Jake Sullivan
    6' - 280lbs - 29yrs old - Professional Highland Games Athlete
    curently off-season
    HG training log = road to pro
    youtube channel = www.youtube.com/xtra0t

  9. #9
    Chubbilicious. VikingWarlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleJake View Post
    I did have success with IF before, and was using more of a 21/3 and 22/2 schedule, but I did lose a good bit of strength. What I have proposed LOOKS complicated but it's really quite simple.

    If you've read any of the in-dept threads on BR's forum where Lyle advises how to go about IF'ing to get solid cut results he says it is ideal to do full body workouts with a day between for rest. He advises to IF until the evening of your workout, hit up a pre workout shake then go workout. Once you get home, have your post workout shake and then proceed to eat your calories through the night and the following whole day for recovery purposes. Then start IF again that evening which will carry into the following day's training in which you would start that cycle all over again. Really the only thing different I'm doing is not the full body workout. I'm trying to maximize strength gains during recovery while staying in an overall deficit due to the IF.

    It's very difficult on paper, but is much easier to explain in person. There are 48 hours in 2 days. You began fasting "last night" so today has started and you take your pre-workout shake at 1800hrs (6pm) then go workout. This is when you're recovery cals will begin you eat/drink your calories just like a normal day from 1800hrs (6pm) until 4500hrs (9pm the following night) in which you begin fasting once more. So, essentially, you'll be fasting for 22 hours.

    I'll be IFing monday, tuesday and thursday, the rest of the days are pretty much normal intake.

    Man this is hard to explain. Marci seemed to understand it well. lol..
    Ok, I think I got it that time around. On the days you're fasting, your feed will always start at 6pm, according to your first post. Something I do know is that the fast isn't usually considered as started until your stomach is essentially empty. If you've still got food in it, you're not really fasting. That's why I like the really short feeding windows to give plenty of time for gastric emptying so the fast can really begin.

    If your fast begins at midnight (after most of the food has cleared your stomach), you fast for 18 hours including one sleep cycle until 6pm that evening. Your next 26-27 hours are a feed that will also contain a sleep cycle. After you're done eating, the next few hours will be spent digesting.

    I've never read the threads over there but have seen people come up with some weird-ass plans like 36/8 and other things like that.

    Now that I've said all that and probably confused things even farther, this will probably work well to get what you want. The other up side is that, even if it doesn't, you tweak it until it does.
    If one person can do something, anyone can learn to do it.
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  10. #10
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikingWarlord View Post
    If your fast begins at midnight (after most of the food has cleared your stomach), you fast for 18 hours including one sleep cycle until 6pm that evening. Your next 26-27 hours are a feed that will also contain a sleep cycle. After you're done eating, the next few hours will be spent digesting.
    Yeah, final meal will be sometime around 8pm and I wouldn't start eating again until 6pm the next day actual fasting time will be approx 18hrs give or take..

    I personally prefer the 3 hour IF window that way I could stuff my face with 3k+ calories .. but it makes more sense to add an extra 3-400 cals and drag it out over 26-28 hours during full recovery time post workout, mainly because of the protein sythesis upregulation training causes. If I recall correctly, protein synthesis is spiked post workout and can be upregulated for up to 36 hours which is why he recommends taking in all of your calories post workout and then starting your fast the end of the next day leading up to our workout that following day.

    It's so confusing when we normally think of calorie intake in a 24 hour period and now it gets shifted.. lol..
    Last edited by JSully; 10-08-2009 at 07:28 PM.
    Jake Sullivan
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  11. #11
    Risk10k Clifford Gillmore's Avatar
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    Errr.... I couldn't do it. PSMF is about as far as I'm willing to go...

  12. #12
    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    I don't see why it wouldn't work, everything looks spot on. Ryuge on here was doing it for a while if you wanna find his journal.

    I've never looked for any actual studies done on muscle breakdown in a short period of fasting like 24 hours, but I wouldn't think it'd be that substantial. You're pretty much fasting all night when you sleep, and if you don't eat right before bed you can go 12+ hours without food pretty easy. I don't see how another 12 would result in that much more muscle loss. Obviously you'll be catabolic the whole time but slamming the cals and carbs on the days when you lift should more than make up for it.
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    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    You read my journal right?

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    Hardcore Thinker bigman123's Avatar
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    New guy chiming in. SOrry I haven't even introduced myself yet, but Shae Sent me over here.

    I have been doing IF now for over 3 months and love it. Here is my stats and Schedule.

    25 years old
    260 15% BF(down from 295 23%)
    6'2"

    I had to cut my cals way back because I just had Rotator Surgery but you can see my schedule tho. I also Feel a million times better and I was still getting stronger until my surgery.

    Schedule

    Cals 2500
    Fat 120g
    Carbs 100g
    Prot 215 g

    Monday 1.5x cals Until 9pm
    Tuesday only Water. NO CARBS NO FOOD
    Wednesday 2x cals. Start at 9am to 9pm
    Thursday only Water. NO CARBS NO FOOD
    Friday 2x cals. Start at 9am to 9pm
    Saturday Regular cals only between 5-9pm
    Sunday same as Saturday.

    This has worked wonders for me because I can actually cheat every other day and still lose fat. I was running 5x5 advanced on M W F. Your fat will drip off. I am in love. Fasting SUCKS for the 1st two weeks. But it gets better as you go on. Any questions hit me up.

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    Wow this seems crazy i just couldnt do it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigman123 View Post
    New guy chiming in. SOrry I haven't even introduced myself yet, but Shae Sent me over here.

    I have been doing IF now for over 3 months and love it. Here is my stats and Schedule....
    Jakes schedule looks complicated (after re-reading it...its not..I am just slooow. Yours (bigman123) looks simple but it looks like Jakes takes into account for PWO nutrition through to the next day whereas you fast the day after your workouts (which are T/TH/S if I read correctly since you w/o MWF).

    What is the better method?

  17. #17
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    I'm glad someone else has had good results with something similar. Thanks for the input bigman.

    risk- this is a bit easier than PSMF IMO. 4000+ cals over a 30 hour window then fasting for 18-20hours including sleep time is much easier than 1400cals of ONLY protein for 11 days straigh. PSMF is fantastic for jumpstarting a cut though, or catching you up if you fall behind.

    borracho- I'm not sure who's would be better to tell you the truth. I read the threads over on Lyle's boards and he suggested to do it this way (what I have proposed) because of an upregulation in protein synthesis after training. Protein synthesis is increased for up to 36 hours post workout so he suggests that it is more beneficial to fast before training (until your pre-workout meal) then slam the calories for 24-28hours afterwards and start your fast again then.

    I'm going to give it a shot starting the 19th and see how it fits. I do like bigman's suggestion of 1.5x cals though. I might implement this as it definately make sense. If I'm eating for 28-30hours (including sleep) then hitting a 20-22hour fast afterwards, it would make sense to do 1.25x cals to make up for the difference. I'll definately take this into consideration.
    Jake Sullivan
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    Thanks Jake...I guess your method makes more sense to me as far as the protein upreg stuff...but it is interesting that bigman has had good results with his method too....guess it'll take experimenting on my part to decide which is better for me.

    Were mood swings a factor for you guys? I've noticed I am a cranky little bastard until I eat...

  19. #19
    I wannabebig!
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    still haven't gotten the diet part down yet jake?

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    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuage View Post
    still haven't gotten the diet part down yet jake?
    lol, aren't you back from the dead?

    No, I've got it down. Now I need to figure out how to do it while still getting stronger.
    Jake Sullivan
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  21. #21
    I wannabebig!
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    i'd say to ditch IF, eat normally throughout the day at a small deficit and lift heavy (low reps of course)

    just comes down to what you want more (the fat loss or maintenance of strength)

  22. #22
    Hardcore Thinker bigman123's Avatar
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    Sorry I am getting here so late. I think it comes down to your schedule. I workout in the morning, so that is why i do what I do. It makes a ton of sence to cram most of your cals/Carbs in after your workout and throughout the day.

    I have never had any mood swings on this diet, compared ot Keto, and or carb cycling. Just works better for me. It really allows you to clear your head as well. Kinda nice to clean out your body every other day or so. And before I ripped my rotator My strength was still going up. Just my 2 cents. hope it helps

  23. #23
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    That does make sense. I guess if I wanted to give this a go I'd either have to go with something like Jake has or change my workout schedule cause now I am doing m/w/f in the late afternoon/early evenings...I think I am going to start experimenting with this.

  24. #24
    LittleJake JSully's Avatar
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    I train in the early mornings on saturday and sunday, then I train in the evenings on tuesday and thursday so this is what works for me.

    If you train m/w/f you could IF m/w/f until your pre-workout shake, then consume 1.5x cals or so until the following night at 8-9p and then eat under maintenance like a normal day on sunday, or even IF with some lower calories (depending on your goals) on sunday and eat from 6-9pm or so..
    Jake Sullivan
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  25. #25
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    So are there any tricks to getting through the first week of fasting? Coffee? Flavored water?

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