The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    My standards are probably different than a lot of people's, but most of the really "jacked" men I know are exceptional. They train exceptionally hard and heavy. They are exceptionally blessed. They eat exceptionally. They prioritize training at, you guessed it, an exceptional level. Some use. Some don't. Some train like bodybuilders. Some train like powerlifters. None of them (that I know) train like CrossFitters or kettlebell gireviks - if they do now, they didn't always.

    Honestly (as a % of the people I know who train), I don't know many people in the exceptional category when it comes to physique development. Most of the people I know and train with are not so exceptional...
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  2. #27
    Wannabebig Member Tykimeister's Avatar
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    I tend to think about how many of these college athletes use steroids compared to the wannabe bodybuilders in the gym? I'm usually one of the "most jacked" guy at the gym and I've never seen steroids, let alone used them. But I've talked to many college football players who use steroids who... well suck at football and use steroids to get stronger. If athletes take steroids to get bigger and stronger it only makes sense that wanna be bodybuilders would want to use steroids to get bigger and stronger. But I haven't seen them around and people have never brought up the topic; while a lot of college athlets talk about using them much more often.
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  3. #28
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    if your the biggest guy at your gym and your not taking steroids maybe you should think about them to take it to the next level.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
    I'll chime in here having just competed in a show and really having a strong interest in lifting for aesthetics for many years.

    First thing is first. I'm offended that you are grouping bodybuilders with the big chest/biceps asshats that walk around with toothpick legs.

    If you have ever been to a bodybuilding show you would know that legs win shows.

    There are plenty of guys in my gym that walk around in shirts 2 sizes too small and train upper body using machines and a 1-2 bodypart a day split.

    These are the guys that look the same, year after year. They look pretty good in a tight t-shirt or wifebeater because their arms usually overpower the rest of their physique.

    The lack symmetry and proportion. I can tell you that all of the guys that compete at my gym, and there are quite a few. Train hard and heavy. And you bet your ass they are squatting, benching, lunging, pressing, dipping, rowing.

    Some of the most popular routines that real BBers use are Max-OT, PHAT (Power Hypertrophy Adaptive Training), DoggCrapp, Upper/Lower Splits, P/RR/S (Power/Rep Range/Shock), HIT, etc. The routines you see in the bodybuilding magazines? Those are used mostly by the pencilneck guys that buy the magazines in hopes of looking like the guys in the pictures, or the 250lb monster in the photo who is running 5g test/week and eating 8000 calories a day.

    Diet will be more of a determining factor than anything in how one looks, esp in the long term. The smart trainee will switch up their training style, utilize all rep ranges, and not be afraid to experiment what works best for them.

    To say that bodybuilders tend to train using only isolation exercises is a blanket statement.
    Very well said... I consider myself a bodybuilder over power lifter. However, I love to train hard and move heavy weight. I will not compete in any type of show or competition in the future, however I train and treat my body as if I am. I like to surround myself with people (gym buddies) who have the same attitude. Do I do isolation exercises? Yes..... Is the core of my workouts isolated movements? No

    On the other hand I do know a few people who give weightlifters a bad name. I get so pissed off when people tell me they bust there ass in the gym but just can't get any stronger or bigger. I asked one guy I know what his routine looks like and he replied: I do curls, cable pressdowns, situps, leg extensions, smith machine benches, and a few other exercises. I simply sighed

  5. #30
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrniceguy215 View Post
    if your the biggest guy at your gym and your not taking steroids maybe you should think about them to take it to the next level.
    Why?
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  6. #31
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
    I'll chime in here having just competed in a show and really having a strong interest in lifting for aesthetics for many years.

    First thing is first. I'm offended that you are grouping bodybuilders with the big chest/biceps asshats that walk around with toothpick legs.

    If you have ever been to a bodybuilding show you would know that legs win shows.

    There are plenty of guys in my gym that walk around in shirts 2 sizes too small and train upper body using machines and a 1-2 bodypart a day split.

    These are the guys that look the same, year after year. They look pretty good in a tight t-shirt or wifebeater because their arms usually overpower the rest of their physique.

    The lack symmetry and proportion. I can tell you that all of the guys that compete at my gym, and there are quite a few. Train hard and heavy. And you bet your ass they are squatting, benching, lunging, pressing, dipping, rowing.

    Some of the most popular routines that real BBers use are Max-OT, PHAT (Power Hypertrophy Adaptive Training), DoggCrapp, Upper/Lower Splits, P/RR/S (Power/Rep Range/Shock), HIT, etc. The routines you see in the bodybuilding magazines? Those are used mostly by the pencilneck guys that buy the magazines in hopes of looking like the guys in the pictures, or the 250lb monster in the photo who is running 5g test/week and eating 8000 calories a day.

    Diet will be more of a determining factor than anything in how one looks, esp in the long term. The smart trainee will switch up their training style, utilize all rep ranges, and not be afraid to experiment what works best for them.

    To say that bodybuilders tend to train using only isolation exercises is a blanket statement.
    I wasn't trying to imply that bodybuilders train like the chest/biceps only guys. I also wasn't trying to imply that they train only isolations, and I certainly also wasn't trying to imply that they don't train legs.

    Basically, when I say "train like a bodybuilder", I mean training with bodyparts in mind. Yes, heavy squatting, pushing, and pulling will still be included when thinking bodyparts, but the purpose of the movements is to build a symetrical and proportional body, not as an end result in itself.

    When I say, "train like an strength athlete" (the powerlifters, strongmen, and various sports), I mean that the they train the movements for functional purposes. The functional purposes may be to make the squat, dead, and bench stronger, or they may simply involve being able to tackle a guy on the football field better, but the training does not have the end result of a symmetrical and proportional body.

    Yes, many people train for strength/size/endurance/etc....Yes, some people train specifically for just one. Yes, diet is what affects the body composition. Yes, compound lifts are the staple lifts (even if a bodybuilder considers squats a "legs" movement, and as only a portion of a "leg workout", and a powerlifter views the squat as the main goal in itself, with all assistance lifts being used to make the squat stronger.)

    My point was that training with a different goal in mind will result in a slightly different type of physique, even if the diet and length of time training is the same. A football player will look like a football player, a long distance runner will look like a long distance runner, a strongman will like like a strongman, a bodybuilder will look like a bodybuilder, a boxer will look like a boxer, even if they all have the same bf%.....From observation, type of training does result in certain sterotypical 'look'. This is not cut and dry, but by 'bodybuilder look', I mean extreme V-taper, huge arms, tiny waist, and a lower body to match creating an overall 'X' look.


    -----------

    BTW, none of the guys I was referring to at my gym are pencil-neck, beach muscle guys. They all train extremely hard and heavy (although some don't put as much effort into their legs as they do their upper bodies, they all still train hard as hell 5+ days a week). One particular guy I was talking about is 6'1", 195 lbs. and about 5% bodyfat. He doesn't squat or deadlift, but he leg presses, and does a bunch of other leg machines on leg day. Other guys do squat and deadlift there, but they still are constantly thinking in terms of 'legs', 'biceps', 'shoulders', etc.....And they all have the distinct physiques to show for it.

    Me, I've been training hard and heavy for over 4 years now (did beach muscle training for several years before that). I have been following low rep, all compound strength methods. My bodyfat is under 10%. I have a blocky football player type look. I have a very strong feeling that if I decided to switch my focus to symmetry and proportion, my physique would change.
    Last edited by brihead301; 11-24-2009 at 08:47 PM.
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  7. #32
    Team Chesticles! Unholy's Avatar
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    Understood. Different strokes for different folks.

    Check out a natty named Shaun Clarida. He has some of the sickest legs on a natty BBer and doesn't go near the squat rack. Leg press and lunges all day, Yates style. Then my homie Brett, who won open bantams at his first show. Trains legs solely like a powerlifter and his legs are HUGE compared to his upper body. He does narrow stance squats and heavy as hell for his size putting up 400+lbs no belt no wraps @ 159lb bw.

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brihead301 View Post

    [
    '. This is not cut and dry, but by 'bodybuilder look', I mean extreme V-taper, huge arms, tiny waist, and a lower body to match creating an overall 'X' look.
    No type of training will create this look if the genes aren't there. Yes you can change your physqiue by changing your training. But not this dramatically unless the genetic base is there to build on.

  9. #34
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    Thats the key. Genetics and diet will determine how your muscles look. Training heavy will get them bigger, provided you are giving them the proper nutrition. Genetics are not an excuse with bodybuilding, they are the sad truth. Few can achieve a truly exceptional physique which could compete at pro level bodybuilding even with all the "extra" advantages in the world. Everyone though can achieve the best physique they can develop, and that usually is well beyond what most people feel their genetics will allow.

  10. #35
    Senior Member bass slayer's Avatar
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    I wonder if there is anything that can kick genetics ass?
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  11. #36
    Senior Member DMedley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bass slayer View Post
    I wonder if there is anything that can kick genetics ass?
    Injections and implants?

  12. #37
    Senior Member DMedley's Avatar
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    Life gets complicated with age because you need to define things by time periods.

    When talking about training methods to look like a "bodybuilder" are you speaking of bodybuilders in the 40's and 50's or are you talking about bodybuilders of the 80's to present day? Are you talking about professional bodybuilders like Ronnie Coleman or are you talking about Natural Bodybuilders. No matter the time period, there are different training approaches that have been used by successful bodybuilders. Even in the 50's some began as powerlifters and transitioned to bodybuilding and others started out training as bodybuilders.

    Trainers like Vince Gironda, believed it was all about illusion. Vince did not believe in heavy back squats but did believe in other types of squats so that the glutes did not get big. Vince also believed that you needed to keep the waist as small as possible to maintain the V taper. It was not really about training a muscle to get big, it was about not training a muscle to get big that you did not want big.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbtrout View Post
    It's amazing to me how many guys I know that say their back is weak and they have "back problems". I've had back problems all my life, so why not strengthen all the muscles of the back, glutes, hammies and stomach to give better support? I still have to go to the chiro a couple of times a year, but not like I did before. My chiro (a lifting buddy) has noticed that I don't have to come and see him nearly as much as I did before deads (I've always squatted).
    I am similar, but my back pain is always a flexibility issue. Squats and deadlifts stretch your hamstrings, so it always makes it feel better.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMedley View Post
    Trainers like Vince Gironda, believed it was all about illusion. Vince did not believe in heavy back squats but did believe in other types of squats so that the glutes did not get big. Vince also believed that you needed to keep the waist as small as possible to maintain the V taper.
    See, this is what irritates me about bodybuilding. I know Vince is an extreme example and I'm not wholly against bodybuilding but I think that training the body to just look strong is ridiculous when you can train the body to actually be strong.

    This goes back to the comments early on in this thread about bodybuilders looking like a collection of bodyparts. To say that it is all determined by genetics and diet and that you can't change your physique is just over-zealous generalisation. Otherwise all athletes/body-builders/powerlifters regardless of sport would look exactly the same.

    Bodybuilding is about the exaggeration of a powerful physique. A strong body is most easily identified by what you see from the front: arms and chest. So bodybuilding seeks to emphasize this visually pleasing appearance by emphasizing these muscles over the rest of the body. Doing things like keeping the waist small compared to the back again emphasize the appearance of the "key" muscles. Its about getting the right ratios as much as overall size. But by seeking to achieve these visual tricks they are actually exaggerating and distorting the natural shape of the body.

  15. #40
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    Also, the differences are made apparent when you see very lean strongmen and powerlifters. Marius Pudz was exceptionally lean at WSM a few years ago but still didn't look exactly like a bodybuilder. You can usually tell in WSM competitions over the years which guys came from bodybuilding, who came from powerlifting, field events, or entered with strongman.

    If you go further back and look at this old WSM footage you can see marked difference in the physiques of the athletes. Geoff Capes for instance was a former champion shotputter and two times Worlds Strongest Man (I think he beat Kaz once) but when you look at him he doesn't even look that muscular. He's somebody who was exceptionally strong but had clearly never trained for aesthetics, only ever performance. Even taking into account his higher body-fat he still looks very different. Different even from some other strongmen who must have spent more time on their arms etc.

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  16. #41
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Drummer, you are proving exactly what I am trying to say. Good stuff.
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  17. #42
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    i suspect that has to do with genetics and muscle composition

  18. #43
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    I agree with OP. I have been doing mostly compounds for 2 years and have gained a ton of strength but I dont look ripped at all. I dont even really look "big".

  19. #44
    Senior Member DMedley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    See, this is what irritates me about bodybuilding. I know Vince is an extreme example and I'm not wholly against bodybuilding but I think that training the body to just look strong is ridiculous when you can train the body to actually be strong.
    I am a believer in looking strong and being strong so I would suppose that puts me closer to your camp. On the other side of the coin, Vince's methods do not meet my own personal goals and obviously not yours. What I can not really understand is why that would irritate you? There is no one single set of goals and there is not one way to workout. I go to a gym where there are people that swing weights all over the place and lift the same amount day in and day out. I do not let it bother me or tell them they are not getting stronger. Their goal may not be to get strong, their goal may just be, to keep their heart in good condition and to enjoy life.

  20. #45
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    I agree with OP. I have been doing mostly compounds for 2 years and have gained a ton of strength but I dont look ripped at all. I dont even really look "big".
    You missed the point. Looking ripped is a function of diet.

    A ripped bodybuilder will look different then a ripped powerlifter was my point.
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  21. #46
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    I think it depends on where your at in your BB career.

    Raw beginners are going to get a good bang for their buck with a heavy compounds/power based routine. You have to develop a foundation. As you near your genetic potentail it becomes necessary to dial into specific muscles to maximize growth while strength becomes basically maintenance.

    I got to agree with these observations though. It's almost annoying. I see way to many guys at the gym, even guys who appear intelligent, spend 95% of their time messing around with arms . Whenever I see one of these guys it's no surprise he is wearing pants all the time.......what a dweeb.

  22. #47
    Squat Heavy, Squat Often Cards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brihead301 View Post
    I wasn't trying to imply that bodybuilders train like the chest/biceps only guys. I also wasn't trying to imply that they train only isolations, and I certainly also wasn't trying to imply that they don't train legs.

    Basically, when I say "train like a bodybuilder", I mean training with bodyparts in mind. Yes, heavy squatting, pushing, and pulling will still be included when thinking bodyparts, but the purpose of the movements is to build a symetrical and proportional body, not as an end result in itself.

    When I say, "train like an strength athlete" (the powerlifters, strongmen, and various sports), I mean that the they train the movements for functional purposes. The functional purposes may be to make the squat, dead, and bench stronger, or they may simply involve being able to tackle a guy on the football field better, but the training does not have the end result of a symmetrical and proportional body.

    Yes, many people train for strength/size/endurance/etc....Yes, some people train specifically for just one. Yes, diet is what affects the body composition. Yes, compound lifts are the staple lifts (even if a bodybuilder considers squats a "legs" movement, and as only a portion of a "leg workout", and a powerlifter views the squat as the main goal in itself, with all assistance lifts being used to make the squat stronger.)

    My point was that training with a different goal in mind will result in a slightly different type of physique, even if the diet and length of time training is the same. A football player will look like a football player, a long distance runner will look like a long distance runner, a strongman will like like a strongman, a bodybuilder will look like a bodybuilder, a boxer will look like a boxer, even if they all have the same bf%.....From observation, type of training does result in certain sterotypical 'look'. This is not cut and dry, but by 'bodybuilder look', I mean extreme V-taper, huge arms, tiny waist, and a lower body to match creating an overall 'X' look.


    -----------

    BTW, none of the guys I was referring to at my gym are pencil-neck, beach muscle guys. They all train extremely hard and heavy (although some don't put as much effort into their legs as they do their upper bodies, they all still train hard as hell 5+ days a week). One particular guy I was talking about is 6'1", 195 lbs. and about 5% bodyfat. He doesn't squat or deadlift, but he leg presses, and does a bunch of other leg machines on leg day. Other guys do squat and deadlift there, but they still are constantly thinking in terms of 'legs', 'biceps', 'shoulders', etc.....And they all have the distinct physiques to show for it.

    Me, I've been training hard and heavy for over 4 years now (did beach muscle training for several years before that). I have been following low rep, all compound strength methods. My bodyfat is under 10%. I have a blocky football player type look. I have a very strong feeling that if I decided to switch my focus to symmetry and proportion, my physique would change.
    I like this, this has my vote.
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  23. #48
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    I'm not a bodybuilder or a power lifter...no wonder I don't look like either
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  24. #49
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brihead301 View Post
    A football player will look like a football player, a long distance runner will look like a long distance runner, a strongman will like like a strongman, a bodybuilder will look like a bodybuilder, a boxer will look like a boxer, even if they all have the same bf%.....From observation, type of training does result in certain sterotypical 'look'.
    This is kind of a weird point. A long distance runner isnt going to lift weights usually in the first place.. and they certainly dont bulk and cut to get big / ripped. And strong mans are the same. They typically dont cut to drop fat like a body builder would. A foot ball player, such as a linebacker, isnt going to cut either.

    See where this is going?

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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummer View Post
    S. To say that it is all determined by genetics and diet and that you can't change your physique is just over-zealous generalisation. .

    No one said this though. The idea was once the basic physique has been built, genetics and diet will have more of an impact on your progress than any specific type of training as opposed to another type. This is not to say that training in and of itself does not matter, only that the type of training (assuming no extremes) is not as important as the above two factors in determining how you will look.

    Ultimately, regardless of your training and diet (assuming however that both are decent) genetics will be the main factor how you end up looking. If you have genes that dictate you will look like a long distance runner, don't expect to look like a pro bodybuilder even if you train like one. Of course you could eat everything in sight and balloon up to 300 pounds (but then that's hardly a "decent" diet.)


    Of course steroids can change the equation somewhat...but my comments are meant to apply to the natural and genetically average lifters(whom are probably very much in the majority here).
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 11-25-2009 at 09:25 PM.

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