My standards are probably different than a lot of people's, but most of the really "jacked" men I know are exceptional. They train exceptionally hard and heavy. They are exceptionally blessed. They eat exceptionally. They prioritize training at, you guessed it, an exceptional level. Some use. Some don't. Some train like bodybuilders. Some train like powerlifters. None of them (that I know) train like CrossFitters or kettlebell gireviks - if they do now, they didn't always.
Honestly (as a % of the people I know who train), I don't know many people in the exceptional category when it comes to physique development. Most of the people I know and train with are not so exceptional...
A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
I tend to think about how many of these college athletes use steroids compared to the wannabe bodybuilders in the gym? I'm usually one of the "most jacked" guy at the gym and I've never seen steroids, let alone used them. But I've talked to many college football players who use steroids who... well suck at football and use steroids to get stronger. If athletes take steroids to get bigger and stronger it only makes sense that wanna be bodybuilders would want to use steroids to get bigger and stronger. But I haven't seen them around and people have never brought up the topic; while a lot of college athlets talk about using them much more often.
BW 210 HT 6'
BP 315x4 365x1
if your the biggest guy at your gym and your not taking steroids maybe you should think about them to take it to the next level.
On the other hand I do know a few people who give weightlifters a bad name. I get so pissed off when people tell me they bust there ass in the gym but just can't get any stronger or bigger. I asked one guy I know what his routine looks like and he replied: I do curls, cable pressdowns, situps, leg extensions, smith machine benches, and a few other exercises. I simply sighed
Basically, when I say "train like a bodybuilder", I mean training with bodyparts in mind. Yes, heavy squatting, pushing, and pulling will still be included when thinking bodyparts, but the purpose of the movements is to build a symetrical and proportional body, not as an end result in itself.
When I say, "train like an strength athlete" (the powerlifters, strongmen, and various sports), I mean that the they train the movements for functional purposes. The functional purposes may be to make the squat, dead, and bench stronger, or they may simply involve being able to tackle a guy on the football field better, but the training does not have the end result of a symmetrical and proportional body.
Yes, many people train for strength/size/endurance/etc....Yes, some people train specifically for just one. Yes, diet is what affects the body composition. Yes, compound lifts are the staple lifts (even if a bodybuilder considers squats a "legs" movement, and as only a portion of a "leg workout", and a powerlifter views the squat as the main goal in itself, with all assistance lifts being used to make the squat stronger.)
My point was that training with a different goal in mind will result in a slightly different type of physique, even if the diet and length of time training is the same. A football player will look like a football player, a long distance runner will look like a long distance runner, a strongman will like like a strongman, a bodybuilder will look like a bodybuilder, a boxer will look like a boxer, even if they all have the same bf%.....From observation, type of training does result in certain sterotypical 'look'. This is not cut and dry, but by 'bodybuilder look', I mean extreme V-taper, huge arms, tiny waist, and a lower body to match creating an overall 'X' look.
BTW, none of the guys I was referring to at my gym are pencil-neck, beach muscle guys. They all train extremely hard and heavy (although some don't put as much effort into their legs as they do their upper bodies, they all still train hard as hell 5+ days a week). One particular guy I was talking about is 6'1", 195 lbs. and about 5% bodyfat. He doesn't squat or deadlift, but he leg presses, and does a bunch of other leg machines on leg day. Other guys do squat and deadlift there, but they still are constantly thinking in terms of 'legs', 'biceps', 'shoulders', etc.....And they all have the distinct physiques to show for it.
Me, I've been training hard and heavy for over 4 years now (did beach muscle training for several years before that). I have been following low rep, all compound strength methods. My bodyfat is under 10%. I have a blocky football player type look. I have a very strong feeling that if I decided to switch my focus to symmetry and proportion, my physique would change.
Last edited by brihead301; 11-24-2009 at 08:47 PM.
Understood. Different strokes for different folks.
Check out a natty named Shaun Clarida. He has some of the sickest legs on a natty BBer and doesn't go near the squat rack. Leg press and lunges all day, Yates style. Then my homie Brett, who won open bantams at his first show. Trains legs solely like a powerlifter and his legs are HUGE compared to his upper body. He does narrow stance squats and heavy as hell for his size putting up 400+lbs no belt no wraps @ 159lb bw.
I think the key is finding what works best for YOU!
Thats the key. Genetics and diet will determine how your muscles look. Training heavy will get them bigger, provided you are giving them the proper nutrition. Genetics are not an excuse with bodybuilding, they are the sad truth. Few can achieve a truly exceptional physique which could compete at pro level bodybuilding even with all the "extra" advantages in the world. Everyone though can achieve the best physique they can develop, and that usually is well beyond what most people feel their genetics will allow.
I wonder if there is anything that can kick genetics ass?
short term goal: 200
Long term goal: Lean 225
Life gets complicated with age because you need to define things by time periods.
When talking about training methods to look like a "bodybuilder" are you speaking of bodybuilders in the 40's and 50's or are you talking about bodybuilders of the 80's to present day? Are you talking about professional bodybuilders like Ronnie Coleman or are you talking about Natural Bodybuilders. No matter the time period, there are different training approaches that have been used by successful bodybuilders. Even in the 50's some began as powerlifters and transitioned to bodybuilding and others started out training as bodybuilders.
Trainers like Vince Gironda, believed it was all about illusion. Vince did not believe in heavy back squats but did believe in other types of squats so that the glutes did not get big. Vince also believed that you needed to keep the waist as small as possible to maintain the V taper. It was not really about training a muscle to get big, it was about not training a muscle to get big that you did not want big.
This goes back to the comments early on in this thread about bodybuilders looking like a collection of bodyparts. To say that it is all determined by genetics and diet and that you can't change your physique is just over-zealous generalisation. Otherwise all athletes/body-builders/powerlifters regardless of sport would look exactly the same.
Bodybuilding is about the exaggeration of a powerful physique. A strong body is most easily identified by what you see from the front: arms and chest. So bodybuilding seeks to emphasize this visually pleasing appearance by emphasizing these muscles over the rest of the body. Doing things like keeping the waist small compared to the back again emphasize the appearance of the "key" muscles. Its about getting the right ratios as much as overall size. But by seeking to achieve these visual tricks they are actually exaggerating and distorting the natural shape of the body.
Also, the differences are made apparent when you see very lean strongmen and powerlifters. Marius Pudz was exceptionally lean at WSM a few years ago but still didn't look exactly like a bodybuilder. You can usually tell in WSM competitions over the years which guys came from bodybuilding, who came from powerlifting, field events, or entered with strongman.
If you go further back and look at this old WSM footage you can see marked difference in the physiques of the athletes. Geoff Capes for instance was a former champion shotputter and two times Worlds Strongest Man (I think he beat Kaz once) but when you look at him he doesn't even look that muscular. He's somebody who was exceptionally strong but had clearly never trained for aesthetics, only ever performance. Even taking into account his higher body-fat he still looks very different. Different even from some other strongmen who must have spent more time on their arms etc.
Drummer, you are proving exactly what I am trying to say. Good stuff.
i suspect that has to do with genetics and muscle composition
I agree with OP. I have been doing mostly compounds for 2 years and have gained a ton of strength but I dont look ripped at all. I dont even really look "big".
I think it depends on where your at in your BB career.
Raw beginners are going to get a good bang for their buck with a heavy compounds/power based routine. You have to develop a foundation. As you near your genetic potentail it becomes necessary to dial into specific muscles to maximize growth while strength becomes basically maintenance.
I got to agree with these observations though. It's almost annoying. I see way to many guys at the gym, even guys who appear intelligent, spend 95% of their time messing around with arms . Whenever I see one of these guys it's no surprise he is wearing pants all the time.......what a dweeb.
H: 5'7" W:185
Goals: 495 -315 -585
“Persistence Persistence.” - Calvin Coolidge.
"I'm so pissed at how dumb this thread is that I think I'll go kick my cat. Again"-Belial
"I mean, it's kind of like neutering your cat, hoping that'll stop your dog from humping your leg." - Belial
See where this is going?
Yep, diet specialization.
First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109
Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745
Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial
No one said this though. The idea was once the basic physique has been built, genetics and diet will have more of an impact on your progress than any specific type of training as opposed to another type. This is not to say that training in and of itself does not matter, only that the type of training (assuming no extremes) is not as important as the above two factors in determining how you will look.
Ultimately, regardless of your training and diet (assuming however that both are decent) genetics will be the main factor how you end up looking. If you have genes that dictate you will look like a long distance runner, don't expect to look like a pro bodybuilder even if you train like one. Of course you could eat everything in sight and balloon up to 300 pounds (but then that's hardly a "decent" diet.)
Of course steroids can change the equation somewhat...but my comments are meant to apply to the natural and genetically average lifters(whom are probably very much in the majority here).
Last edited by Songsangnim; 11-25-2009 at 09:25 PM.