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Thread: Going to failure?

  1. #51
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Failure all the time.

    MS

  2. #52
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL


    I must have wonderful genetics for connective tissues then, since I've been lifting that way for all but about 6-8 months of my entire time in the gym without any problems (except for the stiff pec tendon which I attribute to overuse, not my methodology).
    I was purposefully trying to avoid confrontation(I deleted El Pietro's reference to your quote on purpose.) but since you seem to want one...

    You may attribute your problems to whatever factor you wish, or downplay them. I cannot know how serious your injury is, nor its cause. Nor can I know that this is, indeed, the only problem you have suffered. I will mention that, from what I've seen, your volume isn't very high, so I think that quite unlikely to be the cause. I stand by my point. The people I have know who lift explosively are always complaining about joint pain. 'My rotatator cuff is sore.', 'Man, my elbow is bothering me', etc. Against my better judgment, I have and continue to occasionally lift explosively and invariably I start suffering the odd twinge here and there. I have none of these problems while lifting under control with proper form. You yourself are fond of using physics equations to demonstrate your points. I do not see how you can think, given the physics involved, that lifting explosively would not be more damaging to joint integrity, particularly in the long term.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 04-30-2002 at 01:55 PM.

  3. #53
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Here's an interesting little snippet I found on the subject:

    http://www.dolfzine.com/page210.htm
    Using the logic of this article, a good way to prevent a concussion would be to repeatedly bash one's head into a wall.

  4. #54
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    First of all, what is your defintion of "explosive"? I already gave mine, and it doesn't involve bad form.

    Secondly, I think it can be more damaging in the short term if you screw up and damage something, but in the long run it will actually increase joint strength. I mean, the body is an adaptive mechanism; assuming its mechanical limits aren't exceeded, it will only continue to get stronger, correct?
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  5. #55
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    Using the logic of this article, a good way to prevent a concussion would be to repeatedly bash one's head into a wall.
    That's why we don't apply logic where its not meant to be used; the head isn't a joint.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
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    Budiak: I wish

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    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
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    galileo: hate

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  6. #56
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    First of all, what is your defintion of "explosive"? I already gave mine, and it doesn't involve bad form.
    In general, I do not consider lifting explosively to be good form. For the present discussion, however, I am treating them as separate issues. I only mentioned proper form to cover my own a**, as the one injury that has occured while keeping a journal here was due to improper form, and occured despite a fairly slow tempo.


    Secondly, I think it can be more damaging in the short term if you screw up and damage something, but in the long run it will actually increase joint strength. I mean, the body is an adaptive mechanism; assuming its mechanical limits aren't exceeded, it will only continue to get stronger, correct?
    See my previous post. I think Siff is making an invalid leap from mechanical engineering concepts to the human body. I will grant that he is incredibly knowledgeable about the human body, but I'd like to see support for the above contention. If necessary, I could provide quite a bit of evidence to support mine.

  7. #57
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL


    That's why we don't apply logic where its not meant to be used; the head isn't a joint.
    I think Siff is making a similarly mistaken leap of logic.

  8. #58
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Good idea. I'll go dig up my position as well.

    However, I think he makes a good point-- muscle isn't the only tissue in the body that adapts to stress. Resistance training increases bone density, that much I know; it also increases tendon strength, again proven. I'm sure it won't take much to find evidence supporting the rest of the hypothesis.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  9. #59
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Good idea. I'll go dig up my position as well.
    I didn't actually mean this literally. Man, I'm really lazy...I suppose I can if you demand it, though.

    However, I think he makes a good point-- muscle isn't the only tissue in the body that adapts to stress. Resistance training increases bone density, that much I know; it also increases tendon strength, again proven. I'm sure it won't take much to find evidence supporting the rest of the hypothesis.
    I agree completely with the above points. Resistance training has been conclusively shown to cause all of the above adaptions. The idea with which I disagree is that unsafe exercises or improper form should be purposefully be used to these ends. Again, I really do think this is akin to recommending someone repeatedly bash his arm with a hammer so that it will be less likely to break. If you find evidence to support Siff's contention, I would be very surprised.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 04-30-2002 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #60
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    Blood and iron- If explosive concentrics caused more injuries, then why is it that Siff notes that there are far fewer injuries in Oly lifting compared to bodybuilding. Also I have yet to see anyone get hurt doing dynamic exercises, I have seen more people get hurt using controlled slow lifting then explosive controled lifting. I have never had even the slighted joint pain from my clean and press or dynamic bench. I

  11. #61
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nate allan
    Blood and iron- If explosive concentrics caused more injuries, then why is it that Siff notes that there are far fewer injuries in Oly lifting compared to bodybuilding.
    I am not sure what you/Siff mean by 'bodybuilding.' I can quote numerous studies which show the a much higher incidence of injury in olympic lifters than those who use a controlled cadence, however.

    Also I have yet to see anyone get hurt doing dynamic exercises, I have seen more people get hurt using controlled slow lifting then explosive controled lifting. I have never had even the slighted joint pain from my clean and press or dynamic bench. I
    I did not say that joint pain will necessarily occur. Only that it is much more likely. I seem to recall that you only recently made a switch from bodybuilding to powerlifting. I would ask how long you have performed your movements explosively. While I think the risk of acute injury is greater using an explosive concentric, my main concern is what will occur in the long term when someone lifts in this manner(Say 10+ years of this.)
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 04-30-2002 at 02:35 PM.

  12. #62
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    I haven't gotten a copy of supertraining or read much of Siff's stuff yet but saying less injuries in olympic training versus bodybuilding is kinda a pointless stat, since 95% of the people out there aren't training olympic lifts, so of course the sheer number of injuries for body building would be higher. I'd also argue that people who lift olympic style are younger (in general) as they are competing and are less susceptible to injury then the older guys that have eased into bodybuilding.

    My only point here was to refute that you aren't "in control" of the weight. I know it's only explosive on the concentric portion, but if something goes wrong part way through the rep you are unable to stop yourself as you've already exploded through the movement. So control isn't achieved. In a slower timed rep you can stop mid rep, lower the weight and rack it. In a ballistic movement once you've committed you're pretty much going through the full ROM whether you like it or not. So basically I'm saying that it can make what may be a minor injury into a major one.

    Also, I don't know how you train but at the end of the ballistic movement you must still retain possession of the weight so you'd be countering inertial force to stop the weight, which I would think would really be a lot of wear and tear on your joints. I am picturing bench in this instance, and how you would stop it at the top of the motion. I know you aren't really throwing the weight around, but you are in general using maximal force throughout the full ROM which means when you are almost at 100% you are still using full strength which means you would have to stop the weight on a dime or your joints are suffering from it.

    Or perhaps I'm just rambling and have no clue what I'm saying. This is entirely possible as I haven't trained this way before in the context we are speaking of.
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    I have a buddy Jeff Telljohn who is 68 yrs old, who has been powerlifting for 30 years now and has never suffered any major joint or muscle injury. He has trained explosively for the entire time. Last saturday he got 405 on the bench at joey simpson touch and go bench classic.

  14. #64
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Good for him but individual examples don't really have any meaning here.
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    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

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  15. #65
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nate allan
    I have a buddy Jeff Telljohn who is 68 yrs old, who has been powerlifting for 30 years now and has never suffered any major joint or muscle injury. He has trained explosively for the entire time. Last saturday he got 405 on the bench at joey simpson touch and go bench classic.
    n=1 is meaningless in this context. There will always be those people who have robust joints and who will be able to tolerate this type of training, just as there are people like Ronnie Coleman or Arnold Schwarzenegger who can develop massive amounts of muscle. That doesn't mean everyone can get away lifting explosively, just as most people will never look like Arnold no matter how hard they try.

  16. #66
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Examples are all we really have since unfortunately there haven't been a whole lot of scientific long-term examinations of PLer's.

    OLing experience comprises the vast majority of the literature.

    With that in mind, I will say that I know quite a few older PLer's that have been training heavy for years with no problems.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  17. #67
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Examples are all we really have since unfortunately there haven't been a whole lot of scientific long-term examinations of PLer's.

    OLing experience comprises the vast majority of the literature.
    I am not making a distinction. Is there a significant one in terms of the speed at which the lifts are performed? Or is it, as I(perhaps) mistakenly believed, merely that they perform different movements?


    With that in mind, I will say that I know quite a few older PLer's that have been training heavy for years with no problems.
    I would submit that those that incurred problems are no longer lifting; you're only seeing the people for whom this type of lifting did not select against. I could be mistaken, though.

  18. #68
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    I am not making a distinction. Is there a significant one in terms of the speed at which the lifts are performed? Or is it, as I(perhaps) mistakenly believed, merely that they perform different movements?


    A quite significant difference, actually. Compare the speed of a maximal clean & jerk to a maximal deadlift. There's a very large disparity.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
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    Budiak: I wish

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    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
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    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  19. #69
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL

    A quite significant difference, actually. Compare the speed of a maximal clean & jerk to a maximal deadlift. There's a very large disparity. [/B]
    Sorry. I don't generally think much about powerlifting, etc, but now that I do, my question was pretty stupid. Thanks for answering anyways. Here's one more, though: is the disparity in tempo intentional, or are the competitors trying for maximal acceleration in both cases and some movements due to their unique characteristics just ends up being faster?

    BTW, I'm certainly open to new ideas, so if you find evidence to support Siff's claims I would be interested in seeing it.

  20. #70
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    Here's one more, though: is the disparity in tempo intentional, or are the competitors trying for maximal acceleration in both cases and some movements due to their unique characteristics just ends up being faster?


    Yes and no. The Oly lifts really can't be done without that high speed, while the powerlifts can be (and are) performed a good bit slower.

    However, in both cases, the lifters are *attempting* to generate maximal acceleration even though the mass involved is usually much lesser in the Oly movements. From a muscular standpoint, the Rate of Force Development (force per unit time) is high in both cases, as is the Index of Explosive strength. From an external standpoint, the power (force*velocity) developed is high in the Oly movement but low in the powerlifts.

    As a general rule, the smaller the load the higher the velocity, so PLer's can still be described as "explosive" even though the external display isn't present as it is in OL.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  21. #71
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    I have to second this. If one is a competitive powerlifter, lifting explosively is necessary to be competitive. If you are not, though, I think it's a horrible idea. If you look around I think you'll find that the people that use explosive concentrics are complain of joint problems and injuries with alarming frequency. By lifting in an explosive manner, even if proper form is maintained, you are subjecting your joints to excessive force. I have never suffered pain or problems while lifting under control and with proper form. I cannot say the same for my occasional forays into lifting explosively.
    *** I think that it comes down to what kind of conditioning your body can withstand. I mean if you don't have the proper base set up your going to have problems with injuries and such.
    But if you can allow for a proper adaptation then you'll probally see that your body can with stand these forces. I mean how much of a difference can it be compared to those forces which ocurr during movements such as running, jogging, jumping, sprinting and stopping suddenly etc....
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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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  22. #72
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington

    I mean how much of a difference can it be compared to those forces which ocurr during movements such as running, jogging, jumping, sprinting and stopping suddenly etc....
    I think most of these just as bad or worse than explosive lifting when done in the long term. I would bet even money that running has crippled more people than all other sports combined. People who run for years are almost universally afflicted with knee problems. At least in my observations.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 04-30-2002 at 06:54 PM.

  23. #73
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    See my previous post. I think Siff is making an invalid leap from mechanical engineering concepts to the human body. I will grant that he is incredibly knowledgeable about the human body, but I'd like to see support for the above contention. If necessary, I could provide quite a bit of evidence to support mine.
    *** Emperically speaking I see it on a daily basis since my job involves being in a gym setting for roughly 9-12 hours a day, six days a week. I see improper form being used but it is usually the load that determines whether an injury will ocurr or not. The body is such an adaptive system that it will allow for a certain amount of adaptation to ocurr before a injury ocurrs. The body as most know is a mystery and there are many questions that stand to be answered.
    This is why I agree with most of what he is saying. I guess he is writing this artcile based on his own personal experience which vastly outweighs any of ours.
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 05-01-2002 at 06:05 PM.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
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  24. #74
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron

    I think most of these just as bad or worse than explosive lifting when done in the long term. I would bet even money that running has crippled more people than all other sports combined. People who run for years are almost universally afflicted with knee problems. At least in my observations.
    *** People who also run long term do very little if any weight training. Funny, I thought it smelled of a 'HIT' freak around here.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  25. #75
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington

    This is why I agree with most of what he is saying. I guess he is writing this artcile based on his own personal experience which vastly outweighs any of ours. His analogy may be a tad off base but I get the jist of what he is trying to convey.
    Siff may have a great deal of personal experience. As a scientist, however, he has a duty to substantiate his--what in this instance I believe to be fallacious--claims with hard evidence, and not merely supposition and analogy.

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