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Thread: For a Big bench, lats vs pec

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  1. #1
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    For a Big bench, lats vs pec

    I got this argument from the elite fitness powerlifting board. The prevailing opinion on their is for a big bench you should use your lats much more than your chest for bench pressing. Tricep and Lat strength are what separates a good bencher from a great bencher. In fact they say that most pec benchers, usually suffer more injuries and lift much less weight. So if you want a big bench train your triceps and lats and leave the chest work at home. Would like to hear some opinions on here about this, I was always under the impression the bench was a chest exercise till I read this and some articles by david Tate and louie Simmons.

  2. #2
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
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    we could settle this, VERY quickly if you can just get some pics of bill bradshaw benching. Then, find some other huge benchers, like world class, get all of them, and see how they lift.
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

  3. #3
    PR blaster!
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    I saw that on the powerliftering board as well....I dont understand what lious and dave mean by that. I agree that benching powerlifting style uses less of the pec as it's more of a shoulder flexion movement but how in the hell do the lats move the weight up? One of the examples lious and dave used to show that it isnt all about chest was that bodybuilders have big and strong chests but cant bench in comparison to powerlifters, however, bodybuilders simply dont train for a big bench. I dont know what to think.....

  4. #4
    Simply Devious Rastaman's Avatar
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    I care much less about having a big bench than I do about having a big chest. Usually the two DO go together, though.
    "The only sin which we never forgive in each other is difference of opinion."
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson


    Word.

  5. #5
    Shock Therapist Shocker's Avatar
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    i assume it is with reference to people that bench without a balanced strength routine. If you are going to have a big bench then you will need the pull muscles that balance it out, otherwise, yes I could see definite potential for injury.

    With regards to muscles performing the lift. I assumed that it was still a direct result of deltoids, triceps and chest.

    Otherwise, I really dont see how it is possible to get a great bench without benching IMO.

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    Louie and Dave still work the bench on the dynamic effort day, where they train for speed. The other bench workouts are dedicated to training the synergists, mainly the tris with floor presses, lockouts, board presses, close grip bench, etc.... And it would seem that enough heavy close grip benching would blast your bench eventually.

    According to them, they hardly ever deadlift either, but all their deadlifts are HUGE!!

    Think about it, if you strengthen each link on a chain individually, won't the chain be stronger? Wow, that was a little too deep for 9:30 a.m. ... sorry bout that.

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    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    I believe lats are important for stability, but the actual motion requires pecs, tri's, and anterior delts....I mean my bench has progressed steadily, even though my lats have taken huge leaps in strength, they haven't affected my bench in the least.

  8. #8
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    I think this would also depend on if you are a equiped lifter or not. If you are going raw then you do still use alot of chest strength but if going eqiped then the bottom of the lift is helped out by the shirt so you would not need chest strength there. Also if you want to try feelin your lats push the weight up do a reverse grip bench with a wide grip, they dont help as much with a normal grip but you'll feel them helpin a good bit when giong wide
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

  9. #9
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
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    nice call adam
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

  10. #10
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    I am not sure where I stand on this argument - however my lats have tended to get stronger and stronger while my bench stayed in a rut.

    MS

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by MonStar
    I am not sure where I stand on this argument - however my lats have tended to get stronger and stronger while my bench stayed in a rut.

    MS

    That makes 2 of us!
    Southern Pride !

  12. #12
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Sucks doesnt it?

    MS

  13. #13
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Adam MacKinnon
    I think this would also depend on if you are a equiped lifter or not. If you are going raw then you do still use alot of chest strength but if going eqiped then the bottom of the lift is helped out by the shirt so you would not need chest strength there. Also if you want to try feelin your lats push the weight up do a reverse grip bench with a wide grip, they dont help as much with a normal grip but you'll feel them helpin a good bit when giong wide
    How did bench shirts ever become legal anyway? To me it's the equivalent of having a spotter help you do the lift. Or saying you bench 280 when you only put enough on the bar for 260.

  14. #14
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Delphi, I completely agree

  15. #15
    the kid from oz
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    there was a shawn ray video on in the gym today and i was watching him bench, u can actually see his lats push when he changes direction at the bottom of his lift im not sure how much they actually affect the lift but i just thought i might add my two cents

  16. #16
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    The lats are more involved as your lower back arch increases. That being said, there is no way, and I mean no way, that the lats are more involved in the bench than the pecs, delts, or triceps. What a joke! Big lats can serve as a sort of cushion at the bottom of the movement, thus aiding in the push off of the chest, kind of like a big gut with leg presses. As a final note, my lats have always been a much stronger point than my chest, but I have never been a monstar bencher.

  17. #17
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Yeah chris I am pretty much the same way - my lats have always seemed to overpower my bench at least. Dips is a different story but for some reason my bench has always sucked.

    MS

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    The article from T-Mag

    For what it's worth ... the article from Dave Tate on T-Mag.com .........


    Five reasons your bench gets stuck at the bottom
    and what you can do about it


    #3 ó Your lats are weak

    You need to have strong lats if you want a big bench; thereís no way around this. To illustrate the point, try this: In a standing position, hold your arms in the bottom bench position; now flare your lats. What happened? Your arms moved forward. This is part of the same movement that happens when you bench press.

    The trick to getting and keeping your lats in the movement starts long before the bar hits the chest. It begins with the set up at the beginning of the lift, before the bar leaves the rack. Once again you need to have the proper tight position. Now you want to tuck your elbows some and pull the bar out of the rack. You do not press out of the rack!

    When you press out, your shoulders come apart and your lats arenít tight. Almost 100% of the time this will happen because of the type of bench youíre using. Many benches today have J-hooks or uprights that are too damn deep. You have no choice but to press it out. In this case you have two options. First, find another bench. Many times the power rack will work out to be the best option. The j-hooks arenít as deep and all you have to do is drag a bench over.

    The second option is to take a liftoff from a training partner. I personally donít like the liftoff option because itís still hard to keep the lats tight, but if thereís no other choice, then by all means use it. This is actually one of the reasons why a liftoff helps you lift more weight.

    If youíre pressing the bar in a straight line from the lower chest then there should be no way youíll ever hit the uprights. So donít be afraid to get under the bar more from the start. Many coaches will tell you to line the bar up with your eyes. I feel it should be lined up with your nose or chin. This way you donít need so much shoulder rotation to get the bar out.

  19. #19
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    Delphi, the reason bench shirts are legal is to prevent injury both long and short term. In a competition you want to move the biggest poundage so you take a wide grip, problem with the wide grip is that it puts alot of pressure on your shoulders and pec tie ins especially when maxing out. Shirts are only used in competitions while going for the one rep max, there not used in training while doing reps. I had a incident myself where i went wide one day when i was supose to wear the shirt and forgot to bring it, i ended up pulling my pec and i dont plan on doing that again so i'll use my shirt when maxing out and going wide grip
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

  20. #20
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Adam MacKinnon
    Delphi, the reason bench shirts are legal is to prevent injury both long and short term. In a competition you want to move the biggest poundage so you take a wide grip, problem with the wide grip is that it puts alot of pressure on your shoulders and pec tie ins especially when maxing out.
    I have a general PL question (and let it be known that I know nothing about how competitions work). If the type of lift that PLers perform puts so much stress on the shoulders, why don't they change the type of grip? I understand that the ROM is shorter with a wide grip, but IMO it would be a better competition to see who could move the biggest weight without any assistance equipment. With a shirt, it doesn't seem like it's a true test of strength, rather who is the strongest in lieu of the equipment they're using. I know that shirts allow the max weight to be lifted while preventing injury, but I'd rather see a comp. where the lifters went pure power without any equipment. If you can hide your weak links (with bench shirts, knee wraps, squat suits, etc...), are you really the strongest?

  22. #22
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    You can go and watch raw competitions, Like i said the reason the lifter uses a wide grip is to move the largest amount of weight possible. So just so people can compete for longer careers bench shirts were made.
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

  23. #23
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Re: The article from T-Mag

    Originally posted by Otter
    For what it's worth ... the article from Dave Tate on T-Mag.com .........


    Five reasons your bench gets stuck at the bottom
    and what you can do about it


    #3 ó Your lats are weak

    You need to have strong lats if you want a big bench; thereís no way around this. To illustrate the point, try this: In a standing position, hold your arms in the bottom bench position; now flare your lats. What happened? Your arms moved forward. This is part of the same movement that happens when you bench press.


    Didn't I just say that?





    One more thing, bench shirts were created out of mankinds absolute need to show constant progress, not to avoid injury (although that may be a nice side effect).

    The above is my opinion, not necessarily fact.

  24. #24
    Wannabebig Member
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    I suggest that everyone who reads this thread should also read the thread that started it at Elite:
    http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...hreadid=137230
    What they say makes sense to me but I guess it could be wrong.

  25. #25
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
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    hmm, that woman claimed to be 180 lbs but have a 315 lb bench, doesn't that make her some kind of world champion. On the other hand, she also talks like an amateur. Weird. O well, i don't trust elite fitness, but they're right about the form. I'd still say chest is very important to your bench press at least as the main stabilizing muscle.
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

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