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Thread: Bodybuilding Specific Routine

  1. #26
    Team Chesticles! Unholy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilles1975 View Post
    As an aside, although the above routines are geared towards hypertrophy I notice that a lot of the compounds are in the strength rep range, followed by hitting the muscle a second time with high reps (hypertrophy) - does this also result in good strength gains as well as bulk? Could this be called a hybrid routine?
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  2. #27
    Getting There... Irish Pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis View Post
    This looks like an effective routine; I have followed similar programs in the past with good results.
    Exactly what Im doing right now. Its actually the Ron Harris intermediate layout from his WBB article.

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  3. #28
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
    DING DING DING we have a winner!

    A good "bodybuilding" routine SHOULD get you stronger while maximizing LBM gains.
    Most forms of weight training will get you stronger, but just realize for bodybuilding purposes limit strength is not the main focus and just focusing on that can hinder development. Your strength density and power output is what should increase through the years.

  4. #29
    Lifting junkie. AKMass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    Most forms of weight training will get you stronger, but just realize for bodybuilding purposes limit strength is not the main focus and just focusing on that can hinder development. Your strength density and power output is what should increase through the years.
    What's strength density??

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  5. #30
    The King of Crash jtrink's Avatar
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    may sound like a dumb question... But at what intensity do you train at for bodybuilding/hybrid routines? More curious on percentages based on set progression i.e. 1st set at 75%, 2nd set at 85%, 3rd set at 95%?

  6. #31
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKMass View Post
    What's strength density??

    Bummer, I was hoping my 500th post would be more dramatic...
    Its basically your ability to maintain strength as sets and the workout progresses.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrink View Post
    may sound like a dumb question... But at what intensity do you train at for bodybuilding/hybrid routines? More curious on percentages based on set progression i.e. 1st set at 75%, 2nd set at 85%, 3rd set at 95%?
    Intensity is not measured by how much is on the bar, but the effort put into the workout every set of every rep. For Bodybuilding you need toget away from percentage max, that doesn't have any relavance in hypertrophy. Just because you can bench 300 or even 400lbs doesn't mean you'll grow. Its all about stimulating the muscle.

    Whatever rep range you are working in the weight needs to be extremely challenging with good technique.
    Last edited by Allen Cress; 01-04-2010 at 10:02 PM.

  8. #33
    The King of Crash jtrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    Intensity is measured by how much is on the bar, but the effort put into the workout every set of every rep. For Bodybuilding you need toget away from percentage max, that doesn't have any relavance in hypertrophy. Just because you can bench 300 or even 400lbs doesn't mean you'll grow. Its all about stimulating the muscle.

    Whatever rep range you are working in the weight needs to be extremely challenging with good technique.
    Thanks for clearing that up. So pretty much petal to the metal in regards to effort.

  9. #34
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    For Bodybuilding you need toget away from percentage max, that doesn't have any relavance in hypertrophy. Just because you can bench 300 or even 400lbs doesn't mean you'll grow. Its all about stimulating the muscle.
    But if you take your bench strength from 100 lbs to 400 lbs, won't that stimulate the muscles and cause growth (given nutrtional needs).
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  10. #35
    The King of Crash jtrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    But if you take your bench strength from 100 lbs to 400 lbs, won't that stimulate the muscles and cause growth (given nutrtional needs).
    That's kinda what I was confused about with. Hypertrophy just seems like you do a lot of sets/reps - which in turn eventually builds size (given all the other factors with nutrition, rest, supps, etc.) , but to me it seems like that would be really hard to make strength gains? I'm not knocking on the programs previously posted here.

    But I'm also curious with OFF Road's post. Granted I'm new to this whole training concept so don't tear me apart

  11. #36
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    But if you take your bench strength from 100 lbs to 400 lbs, won't that stimulate the muscles and cause growth (given nutrtional needs).
    Of course you will stimulate muscle to an extent, but people have to get out of the one way mindset that just because you increase your strength you will get bigger even with proper nutrition. There is a ceiling effect with strength and there are more efficient ways to induce hypertrophy. When I powerlifted I could bench 400lbs but my development was lacking and now I can't bench 400lbs, but that isn't my goal size is.

    I'm not saying that all you do is lift with higher reps and do a bunch of exercises. Proper program progression, surfing the strength curve, and getting away from single plane exercises is the key to growth long term and it helps with metabolic conditioning as well as keeping your body from becoming imbalanced.

    Nothing is black and white.
    Last edited by Allen Cress; 01-02-2010 at 10:59 PM.

  12. #37
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    I'm not saying that all you do is lift with higher reps and do a bunch of exercises. Proper program progression, surfing the strength curve, and getting away from single plane exercises is the key to growth long term and it helps with metabolic conditioning as well as keeping your body from becoming imbalanced.

    Nothing is black and white.
    It's hard for some of us to wrap our heads around this. We come from the "get stronger to get bigger" mentality. We've made gains doing this after making very little or no progress with the muscle mag routines. So you can see how we would be cautious and some of us downright confused about this.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    It's hard for some of us to wrap our heads around this. We come from the "get stronger to get bigger" mentality. We've made gains doing this after making very little or no progress with the muscle mag routines. So you can see how we would be cautious and some of us downright confused about this.
    I completely understand where you are coming from because I've been there. When you change programs no matter what it is it will cause and adaptive response to an extent which will lead to some progress. Will you get stronger? Yes, but not always in your limit strength (which is basically 1 RM). There many types of strength that need to be developed to create a balanced physique. I have learned this from many including Scott Abel, Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, etc... All the great minds in the industry. There is science that backs all my comments up but you have to also take into account tat science doesn't solve everything, its the basis where you build from. Training numerous athletes, bodybuilders, powerlifters, etc... has helped me understand it even more.

    It can be confusing when you first hear about what I discuss, but just keep an open mind and realize that tere are many ways of doing things more efficiently for long term results.

  14. #39
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    It can be confusing when you first hear about what I discuss, but just keep an open mind and realize that tere are many ways of doing things more efficiently for long term results.
    I'll keep an open mind
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  15. #40
    2008 World Champs! SMK41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    Of course you will stimulate muscle to an extent, but people have to get out of the one way mindset that just because you increase your strength you will get bigger even with proper nutrition. There is a ceiling effect with strength and there are more efficient ways to induce hypertrophy. When I powerlifted I could bench 400lbs but my development was lacking and now I can't bench 400lbs, but that isn't my goal size is.

    I'm not saying that all you do is lift with higher reps and do a bunch of exercises. Proper program progression, surfing the strength curve, and getting away from single plane exercises is the key to growth long term and it helps with metabolic conditioning as well as keeping your body from becoming imbalanced.

    Nothing is black and white.
    A lot of times people come on this forum and all they care about is getting big and lean. They aren't neccessarily worried about how much they can bench/squat/deadlift. People always point them towards something like Starting Strength first, even though that clearly is more geared towards strength than hypertrophy.

    So in this case would the benefit of doing some strength training first be that you could build up a strength base so that when you move on to doing a hypertrophy routine you can handle more weight to get better size gains?

    For example:

    If you have 2 identical people that start out being able to bench 225 for a 1RM and they take the following approaches over a 2 year period.

    1) Person A does 2 years of hypertrophy training. Given a 1RM of 225 he can probably start out doing doing sets of 10 with around 175 lbs.

    2) Person B does 1 year of strength training and increases his 1RM to 365. Then does 1 year of hypertrophy training. Given a new 1RM of 365 he can probably start out doing doing sets of 10 with around 275 lbs.

    It seems like the approach of Person B would be better. Once you spend some time building up a strength base then you can perform a hypertrophy routine with heavier weights compared to if you had just started doing a hypertrophy routine from the beginning. Presumably this would result in better size gains since you'd be performing the same hypertrophy routine with the benefit of using heavier weights from the strength you added by doing a strength routine for a while first. All of this is obviously assuming both people have a proper diet in place.

    Does that all sound correct?
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  16. #41
    Jaynnie Coltler pigout789's Avatar
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    ^ lol person B is what im trying to do, but very good point.
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  17. #42
    Strongman Tom Mutaffis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK41 View Post
    A lot of times people come on this forum and all they care about is getting big and lean. They aren't neccessarily worried about how much they can bench/squat/deadlift. People always point them towards something like Starting Strength first, even though that clearly is more geared towards strength than hypertrophy.

    So in this case would the benefit of doing some strength training first be that you could build up a strength base so that when you move on to doing a hypertrophy routine you can handle more weight to get better size gains?

    For example:

    If you have 2 identical people that start out being able to bench 225 for a 1RM and they take the following approaches over a 2 year period.

    1) Person A does 2 years of hypertrophy training. Given a 1RM of 225 he can probably start out doing doing sets of 10 with around 175 lbs.

    2) Person B does 1 year of strength training and increases his 1RM to 365. Then does 1 year of hypertrophy training. Given a new 1RM of 365 he can probably start out doing doing sets of 10 with around 275 lbs.

    It seems like the approach of Person B would be better. Once you spend some time building up a strength base then you can perform a hypertrophy routine with heavier weights compared to if you had just started doing a hypertrophy routine from the beginning. Presumably this would result in better size gains since you'd be performing the same hypertrophy routine with the benefit of using heavier weights from the strength you added by doing a strength routine for a while first. All of this is obviously assuming both people have a proper diet in place.

    Does that all sound correct?
    There is one key flaw in this comparison.

    If a trainee is able to gain 140 lbs on their 1RM over the course of a year with a strength-focused program, then that individual is still going to make considerable strength gains regardless of their program.

    Let's say that beacause 'bodybuilder' was not focusing on strength at the end of year one his 10RM is 245-255 lbs as opposed to the 'strength' trainee who has a 10RM of 275 lbs. The 'bodybuilder' should have a noteable jump start in terms of hypertrophy since he has been working with high volume for quite some time.

    At the end of two years they may actually be at the same point in terms of 10RM strength since 'strength' trainee is now adapting to a new program. Chances are that 'bodybuilder' would have substantially more size at that point as well, although both could make good gains.

    Now here is the interesting part. What if this individual does not have good genetics for strength gain? Then perhaps a program where strength is the primary focus will produce better results because they simply would not make gains otherwise.

    It is an endless debate and really I think that it depends on the individual. I have seen people follow programs that make no sense and make great gains, while others do everything right and their gains are very slow. Maybe this means that a 'hybrid' program is best (one that incorporates 'strength-focused' training coupled with volume and isolation work).
    Last edited by Tom Mutaffis; 01-04-2010 at 04:31 PM.
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  18. #43
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mutaffis View Post
    There is one key flaw in this comparison.

    If a trainee is able to gain 140 lbs on their 1RM over the course of a year with a strength-focused program, then that individual is still going to make considerable strength gains regardless of their program.

    Let's say that beacause 'bodybuilder' was not focusing on strength at the end of year one his 10RM is 245-255 lbs as opposed to the 'strength' trainee who has a 10RM of 275 lbs. The 'bodybuilder' should have a noteable jump start in terms of hypertrophy since he has been working with high volume for quite some time.

    At the end of two years they may actually be at the same point in terms of 10RM strength since 'strength' trainee is now adapting to a new program. Chances are that 'bodybuilder' would have substantially more size at that point as well, although both could make good gains.

    Now here is the interesting part. What if this individual does not have good genetics for strength gain? Then perhaps a program where strength is the primary focus will produce better results because they simply would not make gains otherwise.

    It is an endless debate and really I think that it depends on the individual. I have seen people follow programs that make no sense and make great gains, while others do everything right and their gains are very slow. Maybe this means that a 'hybrid' program is best (one that incorporates 'strength-focused' training coupled with volume and isolation work).
    Great statement. Everyone needs to realize that in the end it all comes down to the individual, their genetics, their anatomical leverages, metabolic rate, etc.... A proper assessment is always needed to know what an individual needs state is at a specific time and what their goals are.

    There is no be all end all best program and having a program customized to fit the individual is key and making proper changes from one program to the next over time produces results. It doesn't always have to be just one way. You need to focus on the bigger picture as well and not just the now.
    Last edited by Allen Cress; 01-04-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  19. #44
    Senior Member ironwill727's Avatar
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    I agree that 4-6 days a week is what is needed to get bigger and stronger. I have done this for most of my 8 training years. Personally, I hate 3 days a week not because it is ineffective but because I want to train more. Most of the bodybuilders I know train each muscle once a week with a 5-6 day split and it works for them. They are using mostly compound lifts too. A lot of people sell themselves short and dont train more than 2-3x a week and say they can not recover but many are just lazy or do not have the time etc etc. I have trained as many as 6 days a week and recovered fine (naturally of course) I just had to adjust the volume each day. The best program anyone can do is one that they can stick too. If you really can not train 5x a week then make a program for the amount of days you can.
    Last edited by ironwill727; 01-05-2010 at 04:25 AM.

  20. #45
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    Good thread.

    Despite some variability in strength potential, growth potential, metabolic rate, predisposition to disease and so on, we are all physiologically very similar. Excessive polymorphism is a nuisance, sure everyone's a special little flower but every able bodied healthy human is pretty much identical and respond identically to stressors (of which weight training is one).

    Perhaps in isolation the differences seem huge, ie my biceps attach quite high on the humerous, a colleague's right at the elbow, overall my arm is bigger, a higher peak, his looks fuller, and when I was younger/had less confidence in my knowledge I would have adopted his routine to change things but from a more holistic perspective these differences are tiny.

    Within a fairly small set of parameters/principles everyone's muscles will grow in response to the applied stimulus.

    As acress points out and maybe this is where some of the confusion lies it is not necessarily the weight but rather the internal tension it imposes on a muscle and its duration that is important.

    There is a minimum weight threshold needed or rather a minimum tension that needs to be applied to a muscle for a minimum amount of time before it will adapt (the rep and the set and the cumulative load and time per workout).

    As a percentage that'll be about the same for everyone between 60 and 90% 1RM (with occasional forays above and below), which puts the rep range between 3 and 20 give or take. Which if you look at it, is quite a big range of weights and reps to play with.

    The stimulus for muscular growth is dose dependant, it is not digital, not on/off.
    Too little is not enough too much is, well, too much. Anywhere between 2 and 5 sets at the working weight. For anyone interested check out Wernborne, Rhea, Kruger et al for meta analysis and studies on all this.

    I appreciate lifters have been doing this a long time before science studied it and the role of science at least in this field is to formalise what we've known works but known fact has to be the reference point.

    With regards frequency stimulating the target muscle every 5 days to 2x per week is optimal, how that pans out in terms of days per week depends on how you've split the target muscles/bodyparts, how many bodyparts you feel you can do justice to per session and so on. You can hit a muscle on average every 5 days with an ABA split or on a more detailed split.

    Point is as long as a trainee is within the parameters and working hard consitently any permutation within these rules will work.

  21. #46
    Jaynnie Coltler pigout789's Avatar
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    Well now say that a lifter is a begginer but knows the lifts and such but not so strong. Could Lifter still be able to get big with the said ^ workout??
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  22. #47
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    Is this a good "mix" routine?

    Back and Legs

    3x5 Squat

    1x5 Deadlift
    3x10 Pull-Ups
    3x10 Dumbbell Rows

    Chest

    3x5 Barbell Bench Press
    3x10 Cable-Crossovers
    3x10 Dumbbell Incline Press

    Shoulders and Arms
    3x5 Military Press
    3x10 Dumbbell Curls
    3x10 Skullcrushers
    3x10 Dumbbell Lateral Raises

    Off Days
    Twisting Crunches
    Standard Crunches

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whuditdew View Post
    Is this a good "mix" routine?

    Back and Legs

    3x5 Squat

    1x5 Deadlift
    3x10 Pull-Ups
    3x10 Dumbbell Rows

    Chest

    3x5 Barbell Bench Press
    3x10 Cable-Crossovers
    3x10 Dumbbell Incline Press

    Shoulders and Arms
    3x5 Military Press
    3x10 Dumbbell Curls
    3x10 Skullcrushers
    3x10 Dumbbell Lateral Raises

    Off Days
    Twisting Crunches
    Standard Crunches
    Anyone? Don't want to start until I get the green light from someone.

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