The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
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    If I was training intermediate athletes for only 2 to 3 days a week I would probably stick with a template like the Texas Method. That way, everyone would atleast get the volume work in on the big 3.

    They would always show up for recovery, because its easier, and who doesnt like to max out? I think you would find a higher rate of participation although this particular program may not fit everyones' needs.

    Just a thought. Kudos for being an awesome strength coach. I remember playing foot ball in highschool and no one even deadlifted over 405. Everything was about 3x10. Utterly pointless.
    Last edited by 4g64fiero; 02-02-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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    18% BF down from 25%+ since April. Halfway to abs.

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    Working on correcting some imbalances at the moment.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4g64fiero View Post
    If I was training intermediate athletes for only 2 to 3 days a week I would probably stick with a template like the Texas Method. That way, everyone would atleast get the volume work in on the big 3.

    They would always show up for recovery, because its easier, and who doesnt like to max out? I think you would find a higher rate of participation although this particular program may not fit everyones' needs.

    Just a thought. Kudos for being an awesome strength coach. I remember playing foot ball in highschool and no one even deadlifted over 405. Everything was about 3x10. Utterly pointless.
    I don't like the Texas Method for these kids. And we're getting our best attendance rate in YEARS with this set up. We had our first 500 pound squatter this past weekend. Last year, before I worked with him, he was only getting 405. Got 500 this past Saturday. It's working. I'm not screwing with the process at this point. Tweaking it, though, sure.

    I think I'm going to go with something like I posted above. Combo days where I can vary the assistance work yet work both the upper and lower body on each day.

    The 5/3/1 is here to stay with these kids. They love it. I'm not going against something they love.

    And thanks for the kudos. I really do appreciate that. I've put in a TON of time.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  3. #28
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    Ok, so I've come up with a plan...

    Day 1: Squat/Bench with mostly lower assistance and one upper assistance (this will be dependent, at first, on the individuals weaknesses

    Day 2: Hang Clean/Bodyweight Athletic Movements (Or low weight complexes in which the hang clean would be automatically included)

    Day 3: Deadlift/Military Press, more upper body assistance work with one lower assistance exercise (again, dependent on weaknesses)

    The reasoning is simple. Day 1 and 3 are necessary. I need to combine upper/lower movements when working with a three day split so that our upper bodies start getting stronger. But I don't want to hamper lower body progress, either. So Day 2 became an issue for both upper and lower strength. By doing hang cleans for 5x3 or around that range and driving home the lighter weight point (until they get good form and increase work capacity) and only doing bodyweight exercises/complexes I think it will definitely help their conditioning and it shouldn't impair their recovery all that much. Complexes will be every other week I think as I don't want to fry their CNS, and trust me, some of these kids are brand spanking new to the weight room as of 3 months ago.

    I think that leads to a smooth transition to Day 3, which is Saturday. They then have the rest of Saturday, Sunday and Monday to rest before we get going again on Tuesday. At this point, I'll probably throw speed training in on day 2 and eliminate any extra stuff on Days 1/3 (for now, until, again, we get their work capacity up).
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  4. #29
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    I have a few questions, I realize you've come up with your change, but there are a few things I'm curious about.

    1. On average, what have the changes been on the big three so far?

    2. How long have you been running 531 with the kids?

    3. Is attendance poor on the benching day?

    4. What assistance work are they doing on bench day?


    I love 531 and wish our coach would use it. It's such an easy set up to follow and it's easy to see progress.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
    I have a few questions, I realize you've come up with your change, but there are a few things I'm curious about.

    1. On average, what have the changes been on the big three so far?
    Average from August last year, in 2 months of lifting we added: 5 lbs to our bench, 10 to our squat, 15 to our deadlift and lost 2 pounds of bodyweight. This was with a sample size of about 30 for the testing days in August and January.

    Some guys were MUCH higher. Almost everyone improved everything, one kid is over trained to the hilt because he refuses to stop working out at home. I think 3 kids stayed the same in one lift, everything else was improvement.

    2. How long have you been running 531 with the kids?
    2 months.

    3. Is attendance poor on the benching day?
    No, it's our most well attended day, but the kids whose benches didn't move DID miss that day.

    4. What assistance work are they doing on bench day?
    A bunch of different ones. I was using push press, tricep extensions, Incline DB Bench, DB Bench, JM Presses, Dips, etc.


    I love 531 and wish our coach would use it. It's such an easy set up to follow and it's easy to see progress.
    It's a pain to set up for now 40 kids. But it's worth it. That's why I went the easy route with Starting Strength for the incoming freshmen and created a log for them to write down how much weight they used.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  6. #31
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    A few more questions.

    1. What did you do in season?

    2. I saw you had a rep test after the season, so what did you base your working maxes on?

    3. If you check their sheets, what have the reps been like on each day? Not expecting an answer, just something for you to think about.

    Your improvements look pretty consistent regarding the lifts, so I'm not sure you need another upper day. Especially when the kids who didn't improve missed that day. I could see adding some more accessory work into the mix, maybe on Saturdays, but you're making some fairly significant changes to your routine.

    Also, you're basing improvements on what kids did before the season. I'm guessing most of them dropped in strength during the season, so the improvements might be more significant that you're seeing. When you take into account what they are doing rep wise following 531, you might be in a really good spot and not be able to see it because you're looking at the maxes only?

    As far as easy, I just meant for the kids to follow, I imagine having to set it up for 40 kids would be a pain.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
    A few more questions.

    1. What did you do in season?
    I didn't have control. They did nothing.

    2. I saw you had a rep test after the season, so what did you base your working maxes on?
    Their 3RM.

    3. If you check their sheets, what have the reps been like on each day? Not expecting an answer, just something for you to think about.
    3-5 extra in the 5/3/1 week.

    Your improvements look pretty consistent regarding the lifts, so I'm not sure you need another upper day. Especially when the kids who didn't improve missed that day. I could see adding some more accessory work into the mix, maybe on Saturdays, but you're making some fairly significant changes to your routine.
    I don't think it's that significant, to be honest. There'd only be the 3 531 lifts. Military Press would fall as an assistance exercise on Saturdays.

    Thursday can be used to Hang Clean (This isn't an option, head coach wants it) and perhaps do complexes to help get our guys in shape.

    The only major change is Tuesday where we're benching and squatting.

    Also, you're basing improvements on what kids did before the season. I'm guessing most of them dropped in strength during the season, so the improvements might be more significant that you're seeing. When you take into account what they are doing rep wise following 531, you might be in a really good spot and not be able to see it because you're looking at the maxes only?
    I took that into consideration as well. This is something that I thought about ad nauseum. I think I'm going to try the new way for a few weeks and see what happens. I can switch back without a problem in week 4 if what we're doing isn't working. I'm doing anything but looking at their maxes only. I study the kids sheets every time we're done with a session.

    You can tell they candy ass some days. Which pisses me off. When there's 30-40 kids in the weight room with two coaches it makes it difficult to monitor everyone. I'll be damned if I'm not trying, though.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  8. #33
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    I guess I think it's significant because you're changing all three days to some extent.

    All in all, what you're going to do and what I was thinking are fairly similar, I would keep the same layout you have now and add in the extra stuff where it fit, though. Squat and cleans, Bench, Deads and accessory. Complexes can be added wherever you see room. With as much time as there is before the season, conditioning isn't a huge priority. It's a matter of pairing more than anything. What's nice is that you have 40 kids to test things out on and adjust where you see fit.

    Good luck with everything. I have no say in our weight room anymore for several reasons, but if I did, this is the type of routine I would implement. Basic, heavy and it pushes the kids enough to learn how to really work.

  9. #34
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    I've actually put some additional thought into it and I'm going to keep Tues/Thurs the same and tinker with Saturday. Some upper body work will go in that day as well along with the lower body work. They then have a few days to get rested up and the upper body work will be 1-2 exercises so they shouldn't be that beat down from Thursdays work.

    It's going to be something that I have to monitor and adjust with.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  10. #35
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    Kosh,

    Wondering if you, or anyone else reading this thread, have seen that Wendler and Angry Coach are coming out with 531 for football? No clue how the programming will change, but I'll probably get it to find out. Sounds like it should be out in a few weeks, if not sooner.

  11. #36
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    Yeah, I saw that. Waiting for it to come out. Definitely going to pick up a copy.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  12. #37
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    Are you still considering this a Westside type split?


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  13. #38
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    Not particularly.

    This is what I had them do Tuesday night for Squats:

    Squat: 5/3/1
    GHR: 20 reps (as many sets as necessary)
    DB Lunges: 3x10
    45 Degree Back Extensions (weighted): 3x10
    Feet Anchored Sits: 3x10

    Low Box Jumps 3x10

    Conditioning: 5x50 Farmer's Walks

    It's pretty much from the Beginner's Training Manual that Dave Tate and Jim Wendler put out as far as assistance stuff goes. But, I'm not running any Dynamic/ME days, so no. It's really not conjugate at all.

    Next week I'm going to up the assistance stuff to 4x10 and then 5x10 in week 3. Then we deload and come back. I'm trying to monitor individual weaknesses. It's tough with that many kids for me to do it correctly, though. But I am making some changes to some individuals programs.
    Last edited by KoSh; 02-11-2010 at 08:22 AM.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  14. #39
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    I'll throw this in here just because. I've kept up with most of this thread and I put my 2 cents in earlier, but I'll do it again

    I really think the hang cleans on the second day is a big mistake. Between squatting on the first day, hang cleans on the second day and pulling on the third day, you're going to quickly run into some lower back problems with your kids.

    If you absolutely HAVE to run your program like that, you'd be much better off having it as an overall hypertrophy day to help them put some size on.


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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    I'll throw this in here just because. I've kept up with most of this thread and I put my 2 cents in earlier, but I'll do it again

    I really think the hang cleans on the second day is a big mistake. Between squatting on the first day, hang cleans on the second day and pulling on the third day, you're going to quickly run into some lower back problems with your kids.

    If you absolutely HAVE to run your program like that, you'd be much better off having it as an overall hypertrophy day to help them put some size on.
    I changed it around a bit.

    Tuesday/Thursday is the same as it ever was.

    Saturday is going to be a Hang Clean/Deadlift day.

    Personally, I'd rather leave the hang cleans out of it. It's a very technical lift that the kids struggle with anyways, and with me and about 50 kids I can't teach them all how to correctly do it. But it's not my call. The head coach wants me to teach it and use it, so I have to. The only alternative is to take deadlifting out of it completely and I'm a guy that believes 100% in the benefits of the deadlift.

    The bigger weight moved helps to make kids feel good about their workouts, plus it's benefits as far as overall strength gain and size gain are far more important to me.

    So the only option is to combine the two in one day.

    I don't like it, but I have to do what I'm told.
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  16. #41
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    Did you ever get the 5/3/1 for Football? I've read some reviews and it seems to be all new material and very specific to football. Might be worthwhile for you.
    "Its not the will to win that matters, everyone has that. Its the will to prepare to win that matters." Bear Bryant
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  17. #42
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    yup. Got it
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

  18. #43
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    These kids should be extremely grateful of the work and thought you're putting in their workouts. I was lucky enough to have a coach, who eventually became my trainer, put this amount of thought and effort into creating a program to help me succeed. I'm forever thankful for the work he did for me and the way he helped my football career, hopefully these kids will be successful and see you in the same way.
    Calgary Stampeder!
    Formerly a CMU Chippewa!

  19. #44
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    Are you using excel for your workout sheets? I put my own workout into excel so now all I have to do is change my max and all the weights change accordingly. Its really easy to set up or if you want I can just email it to you.
    ďAs to the methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.Ē

  20. #45
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    Yup, got it set up in excel. makes my life slightly easier.

    Thanks for the kudos and the help, fellas. This is a great community!
    "Donít fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your **** in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesnít matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? **** you. Iíve got scars and blood and vomit."
    Jim Wendler, 531 Method

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