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Thread: Size Plan - Thoughts?

  1. #1
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    Size Plan - Thoughts?

    Thought I'd get this down as a first draft and too also see what you guys think.

    - There is a variation of exercises, mostly compound but altogether it's balanced with pulling and pushing movements.
    - Hitting the major muscle groups with compound movements twice a week, there more frequent muscle stimulation allowing for more greater muscle growth.
    - Ramping (Flat Pyramids) will focus more on efficiently developing the CNS.

    Training: 4 times a week
    Goal: Hypertrophy
    Sets; 4 - 6
    Reps: 3 - 5
    Loading: Flat Pyramids

    Certainly not perfect, but as I've said it's only a first draft, I've probably missed a few things and not thought about everything. However, my main concern is the loading, balancing volume and intensity. Really it's only the final sets with the ramping style which will typically be the ones worked with extreme effort, as the sets will start at 50% 1RM and be ramped up to maximum effort between 80-90%.

    WORKOUT A
    A1) Step Ups
    A2) Stiff Leg Deadlift
    B1) Push Press
    B2) Seated Dumbbell Overhead Press
    C) Plank + Straight Leg Obliques

    WORKOUT B
    A1) Chin-Up
    A2) Floor Fly
    B1) Preacher Curl
    B2) Tricep Dips

    WORKOUT C
    A1) Sumo Deadlift
    A2) Single leg press
    B1) Dumbbell Lateral Raise
    B2) Dumbbell Upright Row

    WORKOUT D
    A1) Low-Incline Dumbbell Bench Press
    A2) Seated Row
    B1) Dumbbell Hammer Curl
    B2) Single Arm Extension
    C) Side Plank + V-Sits
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    Useful criticism and thoughts are welcome?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Clover's Avatar
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    Where are the squats and bench press?

  3. #3
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    What do you squat and deadlift?

    How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

    Flat pyramids is a silly term... use "sets across".. it makes more sense.

    Your routine is NOT optimal. Read the stickies "Starting Strength" "Texas Method" and "Accurate methods on bulking" (the last one in the diet section.)
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 01-17-2010 at 01:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover View Post
    Where are the squats and bench press?
    - Bored with Front Squats and to add some variety, It's Single leg / leg press in workout C, Back Squats are more of a lower back exercise for me, with having long limbs and short torso, unless I have a wide stance but doing that effectively loses the emphasis on the quad.
    - Benching with Dumbbells in Workout D, again to add variety for a change, rather than a barbell.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    What do you squat and deadlift?
    How tall are you and how much do you weigh?
    Squat: 115 kg = 253 lbs
    Dead: 130 kg = 286 lbs

    Height: 6'1 ft
    Weight: 185 lbs

  5. #5
    Senior Member cphafner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGers View Post
    - Bored with Front Squats and to add some variety, It's Single leg / leg press in workout C, Back Squats are more of a lower back exercise for me, with having long limbs and short torso, unless I have a wide stance but doing that effectively loses the emphasis on the quad.
    - Benching with Dumbbells in Workout D, again to add variety for a change, rather than a barbell.
    If it's a lower back exercise for you then you have some form issues. Yes the lower back gets hit on squats but you should still feel them in your quads.
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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    By your stats you are a novice in both strength and size. Eat more and find a better routine. Use the stickies I pointed out in post #3. Good luck and let us know how it goes! Start a journal here and you will surely get helpful tips and advice on a consistent basis.
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  7. #7
    Mr. Skinny Wrists Nicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGers View Post



    Squat: 115 kg = 253 lbs
    Dead: 130 kg = 286 lbs

    Height: 6'1 ft
    Weight: 185 lbs
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    By your stats you are a novice in both strength and size. Eat more and find a better routine. Use the stickies I pointed out in post #3. Good luck and let us know how it goes! Start a journal here and you will surely get helpful tips and advice on a consistent basis.
    Yeah just stick to the basics. You have a long way to go.
    5'9". 34.-----------------------------BEST LIFTS-----------------------GOALS
    Bodyweight-------------------------BE 280 x 1------------------------BE 300 x 1
    Jan 2009: 151 lbs----------------SQ 365 x 2-----------------------SQ 400 x 1
    Jan 2010: 221 lbs----------------DL 405 x 1------------------------DL 500 x 1
    Current: 214 lbs
    bulking again -- working on my DL

  8. #8
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGers View Post
    - Bored with Front Squats and to add some variety, It's Single leg / leg press in workout C, Back Squats are more of a lower back exercise for me, with having long limbs and short torso, unless I have a wide stance but doing that effectively loses the emphasis on the quad.
    - Benching with Dumbbells in Workout D, again to add variety for a change, rather than a barbell.



    Squat: 115 kg = 253 lbs
    Dead: 130 kg = 286 lbs

    Height: 6'1 ft
    Weight: 185 lbs
    Long leg individuals do tend to have a harder time with quad development because of leverage issues but you can still back squat you just can't use such low reps which emphasize strength more so than size and will cause your lower back to overcompensate. Set the bar high on your traps and keep your reps between 8-20 for squats if size is the goal. Single leg presses are a great tool as well.

    Your overall program is not terrible but you need some higher rep ranges on each bodypart and not just train in the Limit strength part of the strength curve. Depending on how long you have been training quads especially will grow more efficiently off of 10 or more reps. You can incorporate 5 rep sets, but you have to balance that the next session with a higher rep range for that muscle group.

    Again how long you have been training is a factor as well as what you have been doing previously to determine what you need to be doing now for growth. If you are intermediate to advanced your total volume for the major muscle groups is way to low and there is not enough stimulation to induce much growth.

    Without knowing more details about your background its hard to say really.
    Last edited by Allen Cress; 01-17-2010 at 03:04 PM.

  9. #9
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Note: You do not need nor have to incorporate higher reps. At your level food is the biggest contributor to size gains. You need to be concerned with eating more and putting more weight on the bar.

    Additionally, high bar squats are great, but you need to be doing low/mid bar conventional squats, as you can use more weight and engage more muscle.
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  10. #10
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    You guys know where I stand on the issue. In the begining I believe that it's much more efficient to work on strength and conditioning. Much less confusing too, at least for somebody that's not advanced and experienced enough to be writing his own routines. And Squat...it's used for a lot more than just leg size
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    Sound advice, thanks but I think being called novice is a little harsh on the scale. I don't think I'm big, I don't think I'm strong but I'm certainly not weak, nor skinny.

    Being the Internet and behind a computer screen I realise a lot of things aren't seen or known about you, I'll share a little more background to fill some spaces. - I joined the Gym at 16, where I was 6ft and 140lbs, yes I was the lanky beanpole kid throughout my childhood. At the time my area of interest was overall fitness, as I wasn't interested in weight lifting, or strength etc. I started with a basic weights program of the norm 3x12, and I also participated in a number of classes. In combination, I was going through my HND Exercise and Health, and I am now currently doing my BSc Exericse and Health - (I'm not trying to brag, or seem smart, this doesn't make me any smarter in the weight room than any of you but I'm certainly not thick or novice.) Between 16 - 18, I was also doing MMA, which involved a **** load of cardio, but around 17 my area of interest turned to lifting. At the time I knew in order for me to bulk up and make it happen, I'd have to focus on that independently and forget about MMA. I didn't want to be a fighter anyway so that's exactly what I did. I eat, I trained, drank ridiculous amounts of milk and I learned my theory along the way. However, it's only been over the past year I've really been lifting serious for strength where I started with 'Starting Strength'. At first size and a muscular build was my ideal but now I want to be as big and as strong as I can possibly be. If you can't call that a stable conditioned base, I don't know what is.

    On a side note: Whats advanced about the OP?.. The fact that I've to press with one leg and not two? - Not trying to bite, just curious.

    I fully understand that there's a vast majority of new members, mainly young males that have just joined the gym and want to bulk up. Thinking that a ridiculous amount of BB Curls will blow them up, and to the fact that they have never lifted a weight before is obscene. So with little progress, knowledge and experience they create there own routine, and come across a discussion forum 'Wanna Be Big' looking for the magic pill from you. That in my book is a novice lifter.

    There is a magic pill by the way 'Anaconda'.... Ok Ok I'm kidding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Squat...it's used for a lot more than just leg size
    Let me guess, it involves a variety of major muscles throughout your entire body and contributes to overall growth as well?

    PS: I love Windmill Squats.
    Last edited by RossGers; 01-18-2010 at 03:22 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGers View Post
    Let me guess, it involves a variety of major muscles throughout your entire body and contributes to overall growth as well?

    PS: I love Windmill Squats.
    I look at squats like math... You can learn basic arithmatic and get along in this world just fine. Everybody knows how to do it, you use it every day, and it allows you to function in society. You are perfectly happy.

    Now somebody tells you to do Algebra, Trig, and Calculus. Holy cr@p this stuff is hard to understand and takes a certain ammount of brain development to become good at it. I asked my college proffessor why we need to know this stuff, it's not like I'm ever going to use it. She replied, "It isn't that it's required in daily life, it's the fact that it teaches you to problem solve and figure out difficult problems."

    Squats have the same effect on the body. It's not that we need it to build muscle, it's that it forces our bodies to adapt to something it didn't know it could do...and that's going to have a bigger growth effect than using movements that the body is used to.
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    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Hey man, Im sorry the term "novice" offends you, but it shouldnt. Your numbers say you are novice but don't let that bruise you ego. Being novice is not a bad thing... it means you can most likely advance in strength up to 3 WOs a week like in SS. Everyone starts somewhere.
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 01-18-2010 at 08:27 AM.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    Note: You do not need nor have to incorporate higher reps. At your level food is the biggest contributor to size gains. You need to be concerned with eating more and putting more weight on the bar.

    Additionally, high bar squats are great, but you need to be doing low/mid bar conventional squats, as you can use more weight and engage more muscle.
    I agree food is a huge contributor to gaining size, but to say higher reps are not needed at all even if he is a beginner is incorrect. Yes you need to increase strength as you progress, but more time under tension will induce more growth. Like I've said before there is a ceiling effect to limit strength so the next progression is to increase reps.

    Also doing low/mid bar squats will allow you to use more weight but will aslo engage more hip and posterior chain and take the emphasis off the quads. Building size is not about just inceasing leverage to move more weight. Squats are one of the best exercises for leg development but if someone has been doing them for a long period of time a break from them can be of great benefit.

    After competing in powerlifting for 4 years and talking to the greats like Louie Simmons at many meets along with many others one need not be exclusive, meaning if just strength is your goal then you stay in the lower rep ranges and incorporate higher reps on accessory work and if your goal is size then you can incorporate some low rep work but more has to geared towards 8+ reps for optimal growth.
    Last edited by Allen Cress; 01-18-2010 at 08:51 AM.

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    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Acress, I'm sure you can see how confused people can get. I'm confused myself, but I think that's how we learn new things.

    I completely believe what you are saying is true. However, we see a constant flow af guys coming here that are frustrated with their progress. Their routines are always listed with high reps and sets and exercises and splits. We talk them into switching to a more basic routine that focusses on building strength and suddenly they start growing.

    I was part of the Hardgainer community for several years and I saw this same thing take place more times than I can count. Now I can't say for sure if it's just a byproduct of giving them something simple to usderstand and focus on, or if it is really the best way to train. All I know is that I've seen it work so many times that it's hard not to recomend it to these guys.
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    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Acress, I'm sure you can see how confused people can get. I'm confused myself, but I think that's how we learn new things.

    I completely believe what you are saying is true. However, we see a constant flow af guys coming here that are frustrated with their progress. Their routines are always listed with high reps and sets and exercises and splits. We talk them into switching to a more basic routine that focusses on building strength and suddenly they start growing.

    I was part of the Hardgainer community for several years and I saw this same thing take place more times than I can count. Now I can't say for sure if it's just a byproduct of giving them something simple to usderstand and focus on, or if it is really the best way to train. All I know is that I've seen it work so many times that it's hard not to recomend it to these guys.
    I understand where you are coming from and for a beginner they tend to read magazines and whatever else they see bodybuilders doing and repeat it which will not work. They are better off with structure and simplicity. But my argument is not to lead them to believe that you have to do just low reps and increase the weight on the bar to grow. A foundation is important and a must to start, but at the same time you can still incorporate higher rep ranges into the program. Its all individual. Can you grow with low reps, yes but there is a bigger picture to look at for long term results and thats increased worload capacity.

    The goal with any program besides size and strength is to increase ones workload capacity and if you only do low reps and never train with some form of higher volume than your body will not adapt and need to grow or get stronger. Being that Size is his main goal training with some higher rep ranges is a must, but not junk volume where he is just doing riduculous amounts of sets and reps just to be doing them. Time under tension is a big factor when it comes to growth.

  17. #17
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acress View Post
    I understand where you are coming from and for a beginner they tend to read magazines and whatever else they see bodybuilders doing and repeat it which will not work. They are better off with structure and simplicity. But my argument is not to lead them to believe that you have to do just low reps and increase the weight on the bar to grow. A foundation is important and a must to start, but at the same time you can still incorporate higher rep ranges into the program. Its all individual. Can you grow with low reps, yes but there is a bigger picture to look at for long term results and thats increased worload capacity.
    I agree with that 100%. That is something that I have found lacking in my own training and I'm trying to correct it right now. I believe that by staying too abreviated for too long that I actually hurt my recovery. The ability for increased strength grew but my recovery did not. Excellent point.
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    I think Acress (and by extension his mentor? Scott Abel) is misunderstood although some of the terms like surfing the strength curve etc are a little confusing.


    To the OP, if growth is your goal, I'd suggest bumping up the rep range from 3-5 to 5-8.


    Firstly despite the confusing terminology, Scott Abel recommends loads of between 55% and 85% 1RM which is anywhere between 20 and 6 reps give or take and progressing within those parameters. So although he can be confusing, ultimately his methods are grounded in the principles of muscle growth.

    Below 80% 1RM, not all Motor Units are recruited (the largest aren't recquired) until fatigue sets in i.e. the last few reps of the set.

    At around 80-85% 1RM all Motor Units are recruited, which is equivalent to all muscle fibers.

    Above 85% 1RM you rely on Rate Coding ie the nervous system increases the frequency of impulses to the motor-neuron in the MU; the fibers contract harder, and you can lift more.
    Simplified explanation, but there it is. When you fail at this intensity, it is not through fatigue (there's not enough time) rather Neural Drive ie your ability to speed up Rate Coding fails.



    There's a minumum Tension (the internal effect of an external load) and fatigue (time working with that load) required for growth.



    So the ideal would be to recruit all MU's from the first rep and fatique them sufficiently.

    Reps of 4 or below, will activate all MU's but not fatigue them

    Reps of 8 or more will activate the largest MU's towards the end of a set when all others are fatigued

    Reps between 5 and 8 will activate all MU's from the first rep and the duration of the set be long enough to fatigue them.


    There are benefits clearly to going above and below 5-8 reps, lower and you chase absolute strength, above and you chase fatigue.


    Not sure if that clears anything up, actually. But there you go.

  19. #19
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    Some excellent points, and overall good discussion here.

    Ok, as stated my goal being size, now rather than incorporate lets say 5 - 8 and 10 - 12 rep ranges, alternating though the workouts, what would you suggest being basic and being for size?

    In addition what is your views on gaining size and strength at the same time I.E. chasing two chickens at the same time, arguably yes your overall strength will increase even through higher rep ranges but not as much as it would with raw strength doing low reps. I personally I think it's best to focus and chase one chicken at a time, chase two and you won't catch any, but I'm a novice ... Only kidding :P

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    Not sure if that's aimed at me.

    Increases in strength will result in increases in size.

    But if you mean to say can you train for limit strength and maximum growth at the same time? I say 'no'. See my first post.

    If, you mean strength, as in getting stronger in the rep ranges mentioned, then sure you can train for both. Getting stronger in the 5-8 rep range will make you bigger.

    You don't necessarily need to train at 90+% 1RM to increase 1RM either. See wendler's 5/3/1, the majority of the training is done in the 60% to 85% 1RM range.

    I don't fully understand this
    Ok, as stated my goal being size, now rather than incorporate lets say 5 - 8 and 10 - 12 rep ranges, alternating though the workouts, what would you suggest being basic and being for size?
    If you're asking for only one rep range for growth then I'd say 5-8RM.

  21. #21
    A gallon a day, everyday! ThomasG's Avatar
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    Suggested Intermediate training routine:*

    Monday: Chest and triceps

    * Incline dumbbell press 3 x 8-12
    * Flat barbell press 3 x 8-12
    * Pec flye machine 3 x 12
    * Lying EZ-bar extensions 3 x 12
    * Weighted dip 3 x 8-12
    * Rope cable pushdown 3 x 12

    Tuesday: Back

    * Chin-up 3 x 8-12
    * Deadlift 3 x 8-12
    * Lat pulldown 3 x 12
    * Barbell row 3 x 8-12
    * Seated cable row 3 x 12

    Thursday: Legs and calves

    * Squat 4 x 8-12
    * Leg press 3 x 12-20
    * Lying leg curl 4 x 12
    * Stiff-leg deadlift 4 x 12
    * Leg extension 3 x 12-15
    * Standing calf raise 3 x 10-12
    * Seated calf raise 2 x 20

    Friday: Shoulders and biceps

    * Seated dumbbell press 4 x 8-12
    * Lateral raise 4 x 10-12
    * Rear lateral raise 4 x 10-12
    * Barbell curl 3 x 10-12
    * Preacher curl 3 x 10-12
    * Hammer dumbbell curl 3 x 10-12

    *Warm-ups are not shown always warm up thoroughly
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    I love it when these seemingly simple threads morph into big-time learning experiences. Thanks to Acress and Daniel Roberts we have covered a lot of ground in a short time. I'm starting to understand more of what Acress is trying to get across to us and Daniel has a way of simplifying things so my pea-brain can understand it.
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  23. #23
    The Flyfisher rbtrout's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion, but after reading the entire post.....to the OP - keep it simple. If you want to get big, eat, lift heavy stuff, sleep and repeat. I was in the same boat about 10 years ago, I wanted to get big (and really strong). Until I started eating a truckload of food and changed my workout to the basics, I never really made many gains.
    Give chalk a chance.


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  24. #24
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    Affirmative.

    However, it's even more confusing I think now to alot of people with everyone having different views and theories, saying different things. Some people say compound only, others say you need little isolation, some say focus on weight being moved and others say time under tension, some say 5 to 8 rep ranges and others suggest higher. Some say straight sets are balls and others say they are basic. Just like some say drink milk, and others say don't.

    Who exactly has set the basics on stone and what exactly are they?
    Last edited by RossGers; 01-18-2010 at 01:59 PM.

  25. #25
    The Flyfisher rbtrout's Avatar
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    There's no correct ONE way - it's what works for you. Compound movements will give you the most bang for your eating dollar. There's nothing wrong with isolations, it's just that many have their workouts nothing but isolation moves (except benching). If you stick with the basic compound moves, throw in some iso work here and there and eat alot, you'll do well.
    Last edited by rbtrout; 01-18-2010 at 02:02 PM.
    Give chalk a chance.


    49 years old

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