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Thread: Squat and DL Form Check (video)

  1. #1
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Squat and DL Form Check (video)

    I've been doing squats and DLs for years but this is the first video I have ever done. In the past two workouts where I have done squats and DLs, I have been left with lower back pain that seems unusual. The pain is not like the usual muscle soreness but instead, feels like some pain stemming from the spine.

    During these two past workouts, I deadlifted a personal best 385 lbs so I am wondering whether this is simply too heavy for me right now and/or whether my form is off.

    I posted a video of my squat as well.

    Thanks in advance. And sorry for the quality - I had to use a cell phone camera and my basement has pretty poor lighting. If necessary, next time I will ask a friend to bring their digital camera for higher quality.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA3sjQhOIU0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRHZc562KAo
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  2. #2
    Da Bears slashkills's Avatar
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    Squat vids were rough but here are a few things i could see
    -you have a bit of a butt wink, stretch your hamstrings, hip flexors a lot
    -depth, couldnt really tell but the last rep looked ok

    Deads
    -sink your hips more before the pull
    -keep your back arched cause its rounding a little
    Last edited by slashkills; 01-26-2010 at 05:51 AM.

  3. #3
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Squat: Take a new squat video. From the side view.

    DL: I agree about sinking your hips more but dont drop them below your knees. You also have some rounding going on.
    Sarvamangalam!

  4. #4
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Squat:
    -A butt wink lol? What does that mean? I will search online for more hamstring but especially hip flexor stretches

    DL:
    -I assume "sinking hips more" means I need to drop down further into a squat position before the pull BUT not below the knees. Is this correct?
    -In terms of rounding, I think I am oblivious to this. Where is this occuring in the video? And should I keep my back arched in one static position the entire time? What are some good pointers for what I should be looking at or doing?

    Thanks!
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  5. #5
    Senior Member skinny99's Avatar
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    Dead: Chest up and think about pushing your feet through the floor,not lifting the weight up. Also looks like you need to get your shoulders over the bar a little more.

    Check this video out. It helped me!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8jg...layer_embedded

    Also read this.

    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/im...g_deadlift.htm

    Squat video was too vague for a rook like me
    Last edited by skinny99; 01-26-2010 at 08:47 AM.
    "The deadlift is more functional in that itís very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy *h*t up off the ground" Rip

    Max 3x5 Goal 3x5 by 12/31/11 *1X5
    Bench (245) (275) 285x1x1 335
    Dead (385)* (445) 435x1x1 505
    Squat (320) (355) 355X1X1 405
    Squat (195) (275) 20 Reppers!
    (950) (1075) 1075 1245 Goals (Not including 20 reps)
    5'10" 288Lbs 02/01/2011 Goal Weight 230 On my way back from a Break!

  6. #6
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    From your second link in pics 5 and 6, it seems like the better position is if the chest isn't up but more so angled towards the floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny99 View Post
    Dead: Chest up and think about pushing your feet through the floor,not lifting the weight up. Also looks like you need to get your shoulders over the bar a little more.

    Check this video out. It helped me!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8jg...layer_embedded

    Also read this.

    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/im...g_deadlift.htm

    Squat video was too vague for a rook like me

    I'm still trying to grasp the difference between "rounding" and "arched". Aren't these the same thing? I will search online for this too but if someone could point the rounding points in the video, that would be great. I want to try to avoid "rounding" but need to identify it first
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  7. #7
    student of the game Runty's Avatar
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    Rounding usually implies hunching over forward while arching usually implies arching backward to keep the lumbar spine as straight as possible. You want your lower back to be \ not ) when pulling
    "Fine, if I'm not allowed to light it on fire, can my imaginary friend?"

  8. #8
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Arching= Erector and spinal extension
    Sarvamangalam!

  9. #9
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runty View Post
    Rounding usually implies hunching over forward while arching usually implies arching backward to keep the lumbar spine as straight as possible. You want your lower back to be \ not ) when pulling
    Perfect, even with graphics lol. Thanks!

    So can I assume that rounding is the cause of some spinal lower back pain? I *think* it's some spinal pain and not just muscle soreness!
    Last edited by charles_316; 01-26-2010 at 12:23 PM.
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  10. #10
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    It sure can be. You are putting a good deal of stress on discs by pulling rounded.
    Sarvamangalam!

  11. #11
    Senior Member skinny99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles_316 View Post
    From your second link in pics 5 and 6, it seems like the better position is if the chest isn't up but more so angled towards the floor.



    I'm still trying to grasp the difference between "rounding" and "arched". Aren't these the same thing? I will search online for this too but if someone could point the rounding points in the video, that would be great. I want to try to avoid "rounding" but need to identify it first
    Actually the difference is in his hip height. It does change his chest angle,however if you set up correctly your hips have to be at the correct height and all you can change is keeping your chest up. It is more of a cue than a reality as the weights come up. I think that on multiple reps you "should" be able to keep your back flat or even a little arched. Now when it is time for a 1rm it is much tougher. Even the form Nazi's give a little leeway on maxes.
    "The deadlift is more functional in that itís very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy *h*t up off the ground" Rip

    Max 3x5 Goal 3x5 by 12/31/11 *1X5
    Bench (245) (275) 285x1x1 335
    Dead (385)* (445) 435x1x1 505
    Squat (320) (355) 355X1X1 405
    Squat (195) (275) 20 Reppers!
    (950) (1075) 1075 1245 Goals (Not including 20 reps)
    5'10" 288Lbs 02/01/2011 Goal Weight 230 On my way back from a Break!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny99 View Post
    Actually the difference is in his hip height. It does change his chest angle,however if you set up correctly your hips have to be at the correct height and all you can change is keeping your chest up. It is more of a cue than a reality as the weights come up. I think that on multiple reps you "should" be able to keep your back flat or even a little arched. Now when it is time for a 1rm it is much tougher. Even the form Nazi's give a little leeway on maxes.
    That's exactly what I was thinking!

    Usually when I do my Deadlifts for reps, my back doesn't round too much, but today when I went to test out my 1RM's, my back rounded more.

  13. #13
    student of the game Runty's Avatar
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    The same could be said for any 1RM attempt though. There is always a bit of leeway in form when moving maximal loads. But this is usually after a solid strength base is established. Wouldn't want to see a total novice walk up and tear apart their back on the first ever attempt because "it's a 1rm attempt".
    "Fine, if I'm not allowed to light it on fire, can my imaginary friend?"

  14. #14
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Squat
    ------
    LOL now that I look over the video again and after searching online briefly, I can see the "butt winks" on the last rep. I am pretty certain this only happens on very heavy sets where I am near 100% effort and usually on the last rep that I am trying to pull out. Is it normal to have "butt winks" on the last rep of an intense workout - like the "last struggle"?

    Another thing I notice sometimes is my knees will bend inward on very heavy sets. I am not sure if this coincides with the butt winks or not.

    I also notice my back rounds a bit on this last rep where the butt winks occur. Do all these (knee inward, butt winks, back rounding) usually occur together and on the last rep of heavy sets? I don't think these are usually problems on other sets for me.

    Btw, I just found a good link here:
    http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=125043

    It seems as though the answer to my question directly above is yes, the knee inward, butt winks, and back rounding are symptoms to one of a number of causes including the following factors Sensei has mentioned:

    *inattention to (or insufficient mastery of) proper form
    *poor hamstring flexibility
    *poor glute & hamstring activation

    Deadlift
    -------
    I definitely see rounding issues in my videos so I will try to correct this and keep my back arched through the entire pull.

    How much deeper should my hips sink before the pull? From comparing to other videos, it *seems* to me that my hip depth is fine.

    In one of the links posted above, it states the importance of actually keeping your hips high.

    "Keeping the hips high
    Starting with the hips at an optimum height is imperative to a big pull. If the hips are too low, the lifter will be exerting effort until the hips and shoulders reach an optimum position for the bar to come off the floor. This is wasted effort. This is seen when a lifter begins to lift the bar and his hips move but the bar doesnít. Once his hips reach the proper height with the shoulder blades over the bar, the bar will come off the floor. The location of the hips when the bar separates from the floor should be the starting position. However, if the hips are too high, too much low back will be used, decreasing the amount of weight that can be pulled while not taking advantage of hip strength."

    Another question: am I supposed to hold my breath through the pull? This is opposite from what I have always done. One of the links posted in this thread said to hold the breath to keep the pressure within your body high or something. But I thought you always exhale during the pull and inhale on the release?
    Last edited by charles_316; 01-26-2010 at 02:27 PM.
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  15. #15
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Any comments? :P... I'll try to post new videos ASAP... I really wanna know the answer to this question:

    Another question: am I supposed to hold my breath through the pull? This is opposite from what I have always done. One of the links posted in this thread said to hold the breath to keep the pressure within your body high or something. But I thought you always exhale during the pull and inhale on the release?
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  16. #16
    Moderator Brian Hopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles_316 View Post
    Any comments? :P... I'll try to post new videos ASAP... I really wanna know the answer to this question:

    Another question: am I supposed to hold my breath through the pull? This is opposite from what I have always done. One of the links posted in this thread said to hold the breath to keep the pressure within your body high or something. But I thought you always exhale during the pull and inhale on the release?
    its hard to see your form in your squat video, so I would suggest a lower side angle shot.

    you do need to drop your hips more in the deadlift and get that chest up by getting your upper back tight. I would hold my air in until its locked out. it helps me force my belly into my belt.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Wow, it's gonna be wierd changing my breathing to the opposite! So I should hold my breath while pulling and breath on the way down...
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  18. #18
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    I have posted much better quality videos of my squat and DL workout tonight. Please check my form.

    Squat - I had a hard time with the last rep on the last set. Other than that, I thought my form was pretty good.

    DL - I focused on trying to keep my chin up and back arched. I got a new PR doing 405lbs for one rep today! Previously, I couldn't pull this after trying twice. I think I may be able to bring my hips lower before the pull but is this necessary since some people say to stay high?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_YEnt_Lz64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NNEjNanhCc

    Thanks in advance!
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  19. #19
    Wannabebig Member
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    get some lifting shoes or dont wear shoes at all. Your only hurting yourself.

  20. #20
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accrane View Post
    get some lifting shoes or dont wear shoes at all. Your only hurting yourself.
    Why is this? I've never seen or heard of "lifting" shoes and don't think I am interested in purchasing a pair. And how would wearing shoes be hurting myself?
    Last edited by charles_316; 02-03-2010 at 08:44 AM.
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  21. #21
    Senior Member skinny99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles_316 View Post
    Why is this? I've never seen or heard of "lifting" shoes and don't think I am interested in purchasing a pair. And how would wearing shoes be hurting myself?
    It isn't life or death but as your deads get heavy those softsoled shoes start to squirm around. Also you are wasting some power in squishing the soles. plus a little elavated heal can put you in a better position. I picked up some stability when I went to my chucks!

    These are really nice but old classic Converse Chuck Taylors work pretty good.

    http://www.roguefitness.com/store/rogue_dowins.php

    http://image12.bizrate-images.com/re...&uid=623515847
    "The deadlift is more functional in that itís very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy *h*t up off the ground" Rip

    Max 3x5 Goal 3x5 by 12/31/11 *1X5
    Bench (245) (275) 285x1x1 335
    Dead (385)* (445) 435x1x1 505
    Squat (320) (355) 355X1X1 405
    Squat (195) (275) 20 Reppers!
    (950) (1075) 1075 1245 Goals (Not including 20 reps)
    5'10" 288Lbs 02/01/2011 Goal Weight 230 On my way back from a Break!

  22. #22
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Squat:
    You are not going to parallel
    Your back is rounding
    -- Drop the weight and fix these two... then post another video.

    Shoes:
    Would you squat on a water bed?
    It is the same thing as squatting in athletic shoes. Get some Chuck Taylors (40 bucks) or some heeled shoes (I really like Risto brand, but Adidas, and Dowinn are great too). Lifting shoes are one of the most important accessory you can have. Get some.

    http://www.ristosports.com/


    This is from one of the South American coaches:
    "Why weightlifting shoes?
    Often I am asked: "Do I need weightlifting shoes?" or "Is there really a difference in bars?"

    To both, I would say "Absolutely!!".

    Why weightlifting shoes are the best thing since sliced bread for anyone using weights:
    If you have never worn lifting shoes and regularly use free weights, a good pair of shoes will easily increase your max by 5-10kg or 10-22lbs. This is because weightlifting shoes have a hard, less compressible sole. A good shoe also has a well constructed leather upper that will support your foot with radial and tangentially compressive forces.

    The hard sole allows you to efficiently transfer force to the floor. So, whether you're doing a deadlift, snatch, or squat, you want all of your hard Work or energy transmitted to the floor. A soft, squishy rubber sole will waste your Energy. A typical sneaker sole will actually act as a damper, sucking the energy out of your lift.

    Think of your lift like thrust out of a rocket. You lift the weight up by as an equal and opposite reaction from pushing against the floor. Again, visualize it like thrust coming out of a rocket- a rocket explodes upward into the sky by shoving expanded gasses out a nozzle which then push against the surface or gasses outside the exhuast nozzle, shooting the rocket upward.

    The upper gives support to the structure of your foot. One should not lift bear foot as your foot will spread out and flatten during heavy reps (not good for arches!!). Sure, you can find photos and video's of World champs showing-off by lifting in a pair of sandals or no shoes. And, this is not something they do day-after-day or at competitions, winning Olympic Golds and breaking world records.

    Most importantly - SAFETY! A good pair of shoes will prevent lateral rocking, protecting your ankles. A well contructed shoe will keep you more stable and in control of your lifts.

    Try lifting a few reps in a pair of sneakers, then repeat the same reps in a pair of lifting shoes. It's night and day. Its like driving a Hyundai Accent then jumping into a BMW M3."
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 02-03-2010 at 11:10 AM.
    Sarvamangalam!

  23. #23
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    It looks pretty parallel to me. I posted a picture below.

    And I think my back only rounds for the last rep or two doing 315lbs. Remember that this is near my upper bounds and usually, the form will give a bit during the last reps on a near max effort lift.

    From what I see, the form for the 275lbs (actually it's 295lbs... I just noticed the mistake) set seems to be fine. Even the first set doing 315lbs looks alright... I know for sure I struggled on the last couple reps on the last set doing 315lbs though.

    My usual routine for squats works its way up to 315lbs for one set of 3 reps or so.

    How about the form for DLs?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMonkey View Post
    Squat:
    You are not going to parallel
    Your back is rounding
    -- Drop the weight and fix these two... then post another video.

    Shoes:
    Would you squat on a water bed?
    It is the same thing as squatting in athletic shoes. Get some Chuck Taylors (40 bucks) or some heeled shoes (I really like Risto brand, but Adidas, and Dowinn are great too). Lifting shoes are one of the most important accessory you can have. Get some.

    http://www.ristosports.com/


    This is from one of the South American coaches:
    "Why weightlifting shoes?
    Often I am asked: "Do I need weightlifting shoes?" or "Is there really a difference in bars?"

    To both, I would say "Absolutely!!".

    Why weightlifting shoes are the best thing since sliced bread for anyone using weights:
    If you have never worn lifting shoes and regularly use free weights, a good pair of shoes will easily increase your max by 5-10kg or 10-22lbs. This is because weightlifting shoes have a hard, less compressible sole. A good shoe also has a well constructed leather upper that will support your foot with radial and tangentially compressive forces.

    The hard sole allows you to efficiently transfer force to the floor. So, whether you're doing a deadlift, snatch, or squat, you want all of your hard Work or energy transmitted to the floor. A soft, squishy rubber sole will waste your Energy. A typical sneaker sole will actually act as a damper, sucking the energy out of your lift.

    Think of your lift like thrust out of a rocket. You lift the weight up by as an equal and opposite reaction from pushing against the floor. Again, visualize it like thrust coming out of a rocket- a rocket explodes upward into the sky by shoving expanded gasses out a nozzle which then push against the surface or gasses outside the exhuast nozzle, shooting the rocket upward.

    The upper gives support to the structure of your foot. One should not lift bear foot as your foot will spread out and flatten during heavy reps (not good for arches!!). Sure, you can find photos and video's of World champs showing-off by lifting in a pair of sandals or no shoes. And, this is not something they do day-after-day or at competitions, winning Olympic Golds and breaking world records.

    Most importantly - SAFETY! A good pair of shoes will prevent lateral rocking, protecting your ankles. A well contructed shoe will keep you more stable and in control of your lifts.

    Try lifting a few reps in a pair of sneakers, then repeat the same reps in a pair of lifting shoes. It's night and day. Its like driving a Hyundai Accent then jumping into a BMW M3."
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

  24. #24
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Thats not parallel.
    And you round in what looks like all of your squats.

    I do not mean to be the bearer of bad news, but what I see is what I see. If you want advice then take what is given to you. Like I said in my aforementioned post, drop the weight and work on your form and flexibility.
    Sarvamangalam!

  25. #25
    Senior Member charles_316's Avatar
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    I don't understand how that is not parallel. It makes a 90 degree angle, as shown in the picture. And my thighs are parallel to the floor. If that isn't parallel, please show me what is... I know I'm not going PAST parallel... but I'm certain from the picture that I am parallel.

    I honestly do not see my back rounding in all of them... I want to learn which is why I made this thread since I legitmately don't see the faults.... And thus, I couldn't even correct it anyway since I don't know what's wrong in the first place...

    How do i spot this rounding? I always make a conscious effort to arch my back. I really don't see it... can you point it out and/or give pointers how to correct this since I DO try to arch my back?

    How is the form on DLs?

    Thanks
    Last edited by charles_316; 02-04-2010 at 09:26 AM.
    Age: 25
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: 175lbs
    Body Fat around 12%
    Biceps: 14.5"
    Chest: 38"

    Bench Press: 225 x 10 reps and 275 pounds x 1 rep
    Deadlift: 405 pounds x 1 rep
    Squat: 335 pounds x 3 reps

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