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Thread: Whole food versus maltodextrin for post workout?

  1. #1
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    Whole food versus maltodextrin for post workout?

    Is there any real difference between having something like white bread or white rice versus maltodextrin post workout?

    Is one better than the other?

    I've been using maltodextrin for years due to the fact that often I'm not in the mood for solid food right after a workout, and its easy to drink a shake.

    But perhaps I should broaden my horizons.

    So is malto (or maybe waxy maize) popular due to convenience? Or is it better than solid foods?

    For those who eat solid foods post workout, what do you like best?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Is there any real difference between having something like white bread or white rice versus maltodextrin post workout?

    Is one better than the other?

    I've been using maltodextrin for years due to the fact that often I'm not in the mood for solid food right after a workout, and its easy to drink a shake.

    But perhaps I should broaden my horizons.

    So is malto (or maybe waxy maize) popular due to convenience? Or is it better than solid foods?

    For those who eat solid foods post workout, what do you like best?
    Either work fine, but I find a shake works best because I can have it ready at the gym as soon as I'm done. If you dont mind bringing whole food to eat after a workout or its ready to eat right when you get home after the gym then you could do that too. Either way I've found its not going to make a noticeable difference.


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    I highly dislike both of these dead carbohydrate sources. Maltodextrin has an unreasonably high glycemic index rating (higher than table sugar), and waxy maize is modified food starch (corn starch), a thickener used in commercial sauces and soups for 100 years. All of a sudden, the supplement industry finds a way to market the stuff and its suddenly the holy grail of carbohydrates. If it truly is so great, wouldn't strongmen and lifters have caught on to it before? I tried it once, got backed up for days. Personally, I feel that both of these supplements are pushed so heavily on us naive and gullible consumers because they are cheapest to produce and easy to mark up. The human body was not meant to consume these unnatural, processed dead foods. My advice is to avoid these expensive, disgusting food alternatives and stick with natural carbs... pasta, whole wheat bread, whole wheat cream of wheat, oatmeal, buckwheat pancakes and the like.

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    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    The glycemic index is not very accurate, and frankly, doesn't mean much most of the time. Maltodextrin is nothing more than a polymer of glucose. In the end almost all carbohydrates are broken down into glucose in your digestive system, your body doesn't give a **** where it comes from.
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    The glycemic index is not very accurate, and frankly, doesn't mean much most of the time. Maltodextrin is nothing more than a polymer of glucose. In the end almost all carbohydrates are broken down into glucose in your digestive system, your body doesn't give a **** where it comes from.
    The glycemic index is only inaccurate when you take into account real whole foods, e.g. ripeness of fruits and vegetables, etc. However, when comparing a food such as maltodextrin which invariably will have the same true GI rating, it is 100 percent accurate. I don't know how you can say it doesn't mean much MOST OF THE TIME... the body is always sensitive to insulin, and constantly up/downregulating your insulin secretion in response to the foods you eat. I disagree with your assertion that sugar are carbs and carbs are sugar. With that said, why wouldn't we all just eat wonderbread for breakfast lunch and dinner because the body doesn't care what source your sugar comes from, right? You wouldn't say that about protein would you? Oh, well protein gets broken down into amino acids eventually so we might as well all just have whey for every meal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Senior Member Invain's Avatar
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    I can't remember the specifics but Alan Aragon posted some new studies on another forum indicating that either the glycemic index is not accurate, or that when keeping total grams of carbs constant, it doesn't matter what the source is. Like I said I can't remember the specifics of the studies but I'll try to find them.

    I'd love to hear why you don't believe "sugar are carbs and carbs are sugar".

    Aside from fructose and maybe lactose, all carbohydrates are metabolized the same way. The only difference obviously is how fast they are broken down/digested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef
    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    But of course.

    Glycemic index is only accurate if one lives live in a vacuum. A food's GI rating is calculated when a person is fasted and then eats nothing but a small amount of one lone substance. Real people don't do that.

    Once you begin mixing foods, even different carbohydrate sources, the impact on insulin levels changes. Once you start adding protein and/or fats, that change is even more dramatic.

    So yes, he's correct. GI doesn't mean anything most of the time.
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    Okay, so the glycemic index isn't 100 percent accurate for each individual all the time. But the method behind the numbers they have given to different foods is the closest and most accurate measure of the way these foods impact our blood sugar, consequently our blood insulin levels. Now, we know eating high GI foods produce insulin spike, because they release more sugar into the bloodstream faster. We also know that insulin sensitivity is constantly changing in response to a variety of factors; the two factors of concern in this discussion being exercise and the amount of insulin that is produced in response to the foods we choose to eat. Exercise alone can increase insulin sensitivity up to 80 percent (I would take the time to cite this resource, but I'm lazy and that study I read I found through this site so take my word on it). If you go lift hard, jack up your insulin sensitivity, then suck down 60 grams of maltodextrin, you know where I'm going with this. Insulin through the roof. This might not be a problem for those using anabolics, or those rare super-athlete types who burn enough calories and train truely hard enough so that it doesn't make any difference. The average dude (95 percent of y'all out there) is going to be doing more harm than good to himself with this kind of diet. Why not save your money on the processed, bleached, dead corn biproduct, eat quality food full of anti-oxidants and vitamins and minerals. Fruit + oats = better than maltodextrin for recovery and gains. IMO

    The only difference obviously is how fast they are broken down/digested.
    Last edited by MadChef; 03-03-2010 at 10:55 PM. Reason: point to add

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    the only thing that should matter is real world results. Will a guy who starts using waxy maize over the course of 3 months make more gains then a guy eating apple juice and protein powder (or a white bread sandwich of some kind)?

    i personally dont think so which is why i just go with apple juice and choco whey protein

    i think your muscles will recover just fine after each workout without eating a super fast carb, focus more on the quality of the workout then the nit picking of GI carbs.. save that for when youre a body builder
    Last edited by Skalami; 03-04-2010 at 06:27 AM.

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    Chubbilicious. VikingWarlord's Avatar
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    So you've gone from this:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    The glycemic index is only inaccurate when you take into account real whole foods
    to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    Okay, so the glycemic index isn't 100 percent accurate for each individual all the time.
    You're waffling.

    The rest of your long winded post also didn't address a single point I made about mixing foods. Here's that post with a little bit of editing to make it more readable instead of being one long unformatted block of text, with my responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    But the method behind the numbers they have given to different foods is the closest and most accurate measure of the way these foods impact our blood sugar, consequently our blood insulin levels.

    Again, this only occurs in a fasted state and only eating a small amount of one type of food. Mixing foods changes this dramatically.

    Now, we know eating high GI foods produce insulin spike, because they release more sugar into the bloodstream faster.

    One more time, this only occurs in a fasted state and only eating a small amount of one type of food. Mixing foods changes this dramatically.

    We also know that insulin sensitivity is constantly changing in response to a variety of factors; the two factors of concern in this discussion being exercise and the amount of insulin that is produced in response to the foods we choose to eat. Exercise alone can increase insulin sensitivity up to 80 percent (I would take the time to cite this resource, but I'm lazy and that study I read I found through this site so take my word on it).

    I don't take anyone's word for anything, especially when it comes to statistics, but this also isn't really related to the original discussion, so it's not important to me.

    If you go lift hard, jack up your insulin sensitivity, then suck down 60 grams of maltodextrin, you know where I'm going with this. Insulin through the roof.

    For what I hope will be the last time, this only occurs in a fasted state and only eating a small amount of one type of food. Mixing foods changes this dramatically.

    This might not be a problem for those using anabolics, or those rare super-athlete types who burn enough calories and train truely hard enough so that it doesn't make any difference. The average dude (95 percent of y'all out there) is going to be doing more harm than good to himself with this kind of diet.

    Find a sampling of people that do this. Then show us a statistically significant number of those people that are causing harm to themselves. I'll lay money that you can't.

    Why not save your money on the processed, bleached, dead corn biproduct, eat quality food full of anti-oxidants and vitamins and minerals. Fruit + oats = better than maltodextrin for recovery and gains.

    Maltodextrin/dextrose/whatever are going to be just fine for PWO because of their quick uptake...as long as there's a protein with high bioavailability. Raising insulin levels after training is beneficial.

    Provide a large amino acid pool (through, say, I don't know...whey?) and insulin can become one of the most potent anabolic hormones your body produces. Fruit and oats can't be delivered fast enough to take advantage of that fact. I agree wholeheartedly that, if you spike it at the wrong times with the wrong macros, you're setting yourself up for failure. Post-workout isn't the wrong time and high-GI carbs mixed with a highly bioavailable protein are not the wrong macros.
    I hope this clears up some of your misinformation.
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    I'll just add this one tidbit. If exercise increases insulin sensitivity (and there in ample evidence that is does), it means that less insulin is required for the same glycemic load than if insulin sensitivity was blunted. Insulin sensitivity refers to the tissue sensitivity (mostly muscle) to the effects of insulin. So if the tissue is really insulin sensitive it only takes a small amount of insulin to induce a large amount of glucose disposal. Thus after exercise the insulin response to 60g of carbohydrate would be expected to be less than if that same 60g came at another time.

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    You're waffling.
    ...mmmmm.. waffles....

    I don't believe in the glycemic index to be a hard and fast guide to how the body digests and absorbs carbohydrates. However, as I stated, I think its the most accurate and reliable resource we have to go on.

    On the subject of mixing foods, I'll provide an example to clear up my side of this. Say I wake up, eat a breakfast of whole foods, mix plenty of carb sources (strawberries, orange, juice, bowl of cereal, etc). I let that food digest for an hour or so and begin to warm-up for my lift. I leave my house, get to the gym, lift for one hour to one and a half hours. In this time, I have ingested nothing but water; no gatorade or sugared drink of any kind. I leave the gym, return home. Time elapsed: 2 hours or more. Also, in that time I have burned a crapload of calories, depending on how hard I exercise I could burn up all that food I ingested in my day thus far. I consider this a fasted state. I could be wrong, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Now, I'm going to slam a nitrean or whatever, some kind of gainer with maltodextrin based carbs, no high-tech mix of super sugars, just your average gainer shake. I have now ingested a single source of carbs, no mixing of any kind.

    Keep in mind the higher rate of gastric emptying and your really hitting yourself hard with sugar. I don't believe its necessary to spike your insulin that high. Plus the increased insulin sensitivity from the exercise itself.

    Provide a large amino acid pool (through, say, I don't know...whey?) and insulin can become one of the most potent anabolic hormones your body produces. Fruit and oats can't be delivered fast enough to take advantage of that fact.
    Agreed, insulin is a potent anabolic hormone. Just like test, it can make or break you. Manipulating hormone levels with artificially manufactured dietary ingredients can do more harm than good, and I don't need to provide evidence to this for you to agree with me. As far as the fruit not being delivered fast enough... how do you figure this? Buy a juicer. I suppose if you want bring molecular weight into this argument, be my guest but I won't entertain this any further.

    I have worked in sports medicine and as a supplement salesperson for years, and I have seen this CLINICALLY. The mesomorph with acne and bitch-tits on a bulking cycle who has been using Cytogainer for three months and now has more flab than he'll ever be able to cut, at least not fast or efficiently.

    Post-workout isn't the wrong time and high-GI carbs mixed with a highly bioavailable protein are not the wrong macros.
    I agree with this statement. But you must see the difference between good carbs (potatoes for instance), and cheap, highly processed food, devoid of any nutritional value. I hope this clears up some of your misinformation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    I'll just add this one tidbit. If exercise increases insulin sensitivity (and there in ample evidence that is does), it means that less insulin is required for the same glycemic load than if insulin sensitivity was blunted. Insulin sensitivity refers to the tissue sensitivity (mostly muscle) to the effects of insulin. So if the tissue is really insulin sensitive it only takes a small amount of insulin to induce a large amount of glucose disposal. Thus after exercise the insulin response to 60g of carbohydrate would be expected to be less than if that same 60g came at another time.
    You're right about everything up until your last sentence. Unfortunately, the body doesn't get that logic, and that is why people become insulin resistant/diabetic. If the body down-regulated the amount of insulin secreted into the blood stream according to insulin sensitivity, we wouldn't have near the health problems associated with excess sugar consumption that we have in society. The reason the body doesn't make that logical adjustment is because it's only programmed to do what has worked for a hundred thousand years, with natural foods. Processed carbohydrates are alien to the body. Sugar is a drug to a lot of people, especially those with sugar handling problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    You're right about everything up until your last sentence. Unfortunately, the body doesn't get that logic, and that is why people become insulin resistant/diabetic. If the body down-regulated the amount of insulin secreted into the blood stream according to insulin sensitivity, we wouldn't have near the health problems associated with excess sugar consumption that we have in society. The reason the body doesn't make that logical adjustment is because it's only programmed to do what has worked for a hundred thousand years, with natural foods. Processed carbohydrates are alien to the body. Sugar is a drug to a lot of people, especially those with sugar handling problems.
    I'm not sure I follow your logic here. It you are very insulin sensitive yet pumped out huge amounts of insulin all the time you would have hypoglycemia all the time. Don't forget about non-insulin mediated glucose transport after exercise as well. I've actually published peer-reviewed research that found the insulin response to a CHO load after exercise was blunted for at least 30 minutes after exercise compared to the same CHO load at rest.
    I agree that excess sugar consumption does lead to the development of diabetes in those who have any predisposition toward it. I also agree that sugar intake can become almost addictive in some people. But even in insulin resistant people, insulin output is typically increased (at least initially) to try and control blood glucose levels, so again insulin output does indirectly respond to insulin sensitivity, except in the opposite direction in this case. The diabetes research I've read leads me to believe that insulin resistance is due to impaired insulin signaling and the body does try to respond by modulating insulin output to regulate blood glucose. The primary problem with this whole area is that we don't know precisely what causes the impaired insulin signaling in insulin resistance in the first place.
    I would generally agree with your premise that that it isn't necessary to ingest massive amounts of high GI CHO after training. I don't think it's a huge issue if some who is reasonable lean and healthy wants to take in some high GI carbs right after training provided the rest of there diet is decent.

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    Ok, thanks guy.

    I think.
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    Madchef, in your attempt to push the wholefoods are healthier agenda you're deliberately (or mistakenly) twisting the arguements to suit. You're confusing acute with chronic, and judicious consumption vs excessive.

    I don't think anyone here would argue that for health (define as you wish) that wholefoods are better. But for performance athletes who generally eat a mixed diet, it makes no difference whether they choose processed starches/sugars to fuel their training.

    I have worked in sports medicine and as a supplement salesperson for years, and I have seen this CLINICALLY. The mesomorph with acne and bitch-tits on a bulking cycle who has been using Cytogainer for three months and now has more flab than he'll ever be able to cut, at least not fast or efficiently.
    C'mon this is silly - the cause is gross over consumption of calories not Cytogainer.


    However, Sean S makes an excellent point about catecholamine mediated insulin levels post training. As long as a pre-training meal is eaten, it makes no difference at all what type of food is consumed, especially for weight trainers (things change if you're an endurance athlete, and you plan on undertaking another endurance based training session within the next 8hrs or so, glycogen replenishment would be a priority and need to be quicker - you guessed it liquid dextrose, maltodextrin or vitargo etc).

    And to Clone, the OP, convenience and marketing are the reason weightrainers take malto, wms etc they are no better than wholefoods (in context) - just take what you prefer.

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    Didn't Chris Mason do something on this recently showing that generally whole foods were as good or superior to shakes post-workout?

    I live quite close to my gym, so generally when I finish, I cycle back, set some pasta boiling, drink a pint or two of milk, mix tuna with pasta, eat it, then grab a shower. Works for me. If I start going to a different gym or going at different times I'll probably start using a shake.

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    I don't believe you are recalling that correctly.

    Only thing that I can recall Chris discussing was the waxy maize issue, not whole foods vs. shakes post workout


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    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    I have worked in sports medicine and as a supplement salesperson for years, and I have seen this CLINICALLY. The mesomorph with acne and bitch-tits on a bulking cycle who has been using Cytogainer for three months and now has more flab than he'll ever be able to cut, at least not fast or efficiently.
    Wow, ironically I take Cytogainer post workout. Been doing this for years.

    Funny I have no acne or gyno, and am at 10% BF.
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    Eat real food

    I'm not sure I follow your logic here. It you are very insulin sensitive yet pumped out huge amounts of insulin all the time you would have hypoglycemia all the time.
    I suspect more people these days are hypoglycemic/insulin resistant and don't even realize it. With that being said, let me make the point that many weightlifters and those who participate in the sport of bodybuilding make it an all important daily goal to keep carbohydrate intake constant throughout the day. With a near constant intake of carbs, symptoms of hypoglycemia/insulin resistance would be hardly recognizable, if non-existent. This doesn't mean one isn't encouraging the onset of such conditions. Non-insulin mediated glucose uptake is the function of the body that spares the majority of bodybuilders and hard training athletes with poor diets from developing sugar handling problems, IMO.
    My understanding of the non-insulin mediated glucose uptake system is that contraction of muscles brings GLUT4 receptors to the cell's surface, resulting in the same end of glucose transportation, only by different means. This only occurs during the contraction itself, not in a post-exercise phase.

    I've actually published peer-reviewed research that found the insulin response to a CHO load after exercise was blunted for at least 30 minutes after exercise compared to the same CHO load at rest.
    Not much peer reviewed research has been done on this subject and I would be very interested to review it myself. It seems to me like there must be a compelling force behind the lack of scientific research on the efficacy of supplements like Vitargo and waxy maize.
    The primary problem with this whole area is that we don't know precisely what causes the impaired insulin signaling in insulin resistance in the first place.
    I've always been under the impression that the impairment of insulin signaling in insulin resistant patients is a result of long-term excessive sugar consumption, and the subsequent systematic dismantling of GLUT4 receptors. Diabetes sets in as the body continuously up-regulates insulin production in attempts to control blood glucose levels - as you mentioned. All of this resulting in a vicious cycle, and diabetes is exacerbated as artificial insulin is introduced as a so called "treatment".
    catecholamine mediated insulin levels post training.
    Please elaborate. And while you're at it, explain to me why you feel I've "twisted" the argument.

    And to the OP, I apologize for getting out of hand with this debate, but I think it is an important one and an issue people need to better understand. I know most of what I've said flies in the face of modern bodybuilding "wisdom" but I don't care. I feel like a lot of the time, people will go out of their way to ignore common sense in order to justify their insatiable addiction to purchasing bodybuilding products. As Daniel Roberts alluded to, the supplement PR machine is very powerful, and i feel a lot of us gullible consumers are easily brainwashed, especially when you have icons like Ronnie Coleman and Derrick Poundstone endorsing products that they don't even use themselves.

    In conclusion, EAT REAL FOOD!
    Last edited by MadChef; 03-05-2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason: point to add

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Roberts View Post
    And to Clone, the OP, convenience and marketing are the reason weightrainers take malto, wms etc they are no better than wholefoods (in context) - just take what you prefer.
    Thanks.

    I can handle convenience, but not marketing.

    Just wasn't sure if there were studies that proved malto was actually better. You know, like lab rats taking malto versus whole foods deadlifted more weight. hehe

    I would prefer to eat whole foods, but my appetite is not up to par right after a workout.
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    Wow, ironically I take Cytogainer post workout. Been doing this for years.

    Funny I have no acne or gyno, and am at 10% BF.
    Haha, yeah and hopefully you also eat SOME real food... and don't suck the stuff down like its water. My example I used was an extreme case, but working in the supplement industry, you would be surprised at how many of these losers I came across. Sad...
    Last edited by MadChef; 03-05-2010 at 12:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadChef View Post
    And to the OP, I apologize for getting out of hand with this debate, but I think it is an important one and an issue people need to better understand. I know most of what I've said flies in the face of modern bodybuilding "wisdom" but I don't care. I feel like a lot of the time, people will go out of their way to ignore common sense in order to justify their insatiable addiction to purchasing bodybuilding products. As Daniel Roberts alluded to, the supplement PR machine is very powerful, and i feel a lot of us gullible consumers are easily brainwashed, especially when you have icons like Ronnie Coleman and Derrick Poundstone endorsing products that they don't even use themselves.

    In conclusion, EAT REAL FOOD!
    I hear what you are saying.

    I hate most supplements, and all the marketing.

    But post workout my appetite isn't always good, so this is one area that interests me.
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    All I know is that at one point in my life I was "shaker guy" who would have somewhere between 4-8 servings of waxy gaize a week. Got my bloodwork done and with no ther supplementation my triglycerides were over 300. Realized the fault of my ways, and now I eat food or when I am in a bind a plain ole protein shake post workout. I am bigger, stronger than I have ever been and my bloodwork is back in check.

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    MadChef:

    Look up glycemic load.

    Edit:

    To add to what Viking Warlord has pointed out regarding the utter uselessness of GI. It's based on 50 grams of digestible carbohydrate. So in the case of carrots, you're eating a few bags...
    Last edited by Holto; 03-08-2010 at 01:17 PM.

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