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Thread: This sounds like a good program, but I don't see how it is groundbreaking

  1. #1
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    This sounds like a good program, but I don't see how it is groundbreaking

    I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here, because I know a lot of research and planning went into making this program. However, I'm just not seeing the 'magic' of it.

    You have all the basics:

    - get stronger (which means you could either lift more weight for the same amount of reps, or vise-versa showing a strength increase)
    - Aim for an upward trend in progress, even if not linear
    - Be consistent
    - Hit every muscle group every 3 - 5 days (72 is about the average)
    - don't neglect any muscle groups
    - Focus on the basic barbell lifts first, and choose isolations wisely
    - Don't do too much every session
    - Eat properly
    - allow for proper recovery and program deload weeks


    The list goes on.....

    Anyway, I read all about it, and it seems like a decent program. It follows all the principles that I, and many other sucessful lifters on here have been following for many years now. In fact, the book "The new rules of lifting" basically lists every single "rule" that HCT-12 is based upon (which is why I can tell that it's a good program...and why NROL is such a good book!)

    But it seems as if the "6+2+2+2" thing is coming across as some 'groundbreaking, magical rep range'. And we all know that there is no magical set/rep range for any particular goal whether it be hypertrophy, strength, endurance, or a mix of any or all of them.

    I guess I'm just kinda playing the devil's advocate here, and questioning what makes this program so great. Is it REALLY that "6+2+2+2" set/rep scheme that does it?

    If I wasn't in the middle of cycle 8 of the 5/3/1 (which I plan on sticking with until it no longer works for me), then I'd give it a shot myself....but of all the experience and knowledge that I have about lifting, I can form an intelligent opinion on this program without needing to try it. My opinion is that it looks like a good, solid program, but nothing groundbreaking.

    Even research can't really prove if this is program is any better then another solid program, because the test subject's previous level of training experience will have an effect on the results that he gets from this program. The only way to truly test one program vs. another program is to set all variables equal (same person, with the same training background, on the same diet, same rest periods, etc....) But that is impossible, since the test subjects can not be compared to themselves from the same starting point (ex. A person followed 5/3/1 consistently for 2 years, and then switched to HCT-12 and gained x amount of muscle.....how much effect did the 5/3/1 have some effect on it?)

    Again, it looks solid, but I'm wondering what makes this program different then any other solid program?
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  2. #2
    A gallon a day, everyday! ThomasG's Avatar
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    I'm with ya brihead. I don't know if HCT-12 was claimed as groundbreaking or not though. Just seems to be a simple solid straightforward routine. I'm giving it a run right now for summer I don't expect anything magical from it but it is interesting so far as I've never done rest/pause so much.
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    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    I want MAGIC...thanks for ruining the dream

    Seriously, all the things you mentioned is why it's a good program and why I decided to give it a whirl. I don't think it's ground breaking, but it is different in that it's presented in an easy to read, all inclusive package (routine, science, nutrition, FAQ, and online support) and it's FREE. Also, I have never done rest/pause reps before, so I'm very curious what that will do for me.
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    All very good points, but points I actually make in the 'Principles' article -
    muscle growth boils down to a few simple principles that every program must obey.
    etc.

    In the original draft, I include a comparison of 5 or 6 popular and effective programs, from 5/3/1, to Starting Strength to Max-OT and a few in between, highlighting the frequency, total number of reps, intensity etc to demonstrate that the 'principles' are not violated even in quite different looking programs. In fact I think at some point, that chart'll be posted.

    As for magic rep range, I clearly demonstrate that for most trainees most of the time there is a best rep range based on recruiting the greatest number of motor units with the greatest potential for growth and fatiguing them appropriately.

    Question I have for you is, given 'all the experience and knowledge' you have 'about lifting' what do you think constitutes 'groundbreaking' and why would you think there is 'magic' still to be found especially given the tone of my article?

  5. #5
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    My opinion is that it looks like a good, solid program, but nothing groundbreaking.
    To be fair, I didn't see the creators of the program mention that it is. One of the primary targets of this program is those people who are new to lifting and complain about not making any gains. For those people this program IS groundbreaking, because it is easy and accessible. There is also the fact that it tells you how to eat, which is a very good thing. The latter issue really goes unmentioned in many programs.
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  6. #6
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    Also to be fair, Ive read the guys numerous times stating in posts that this program is great because they arent pushing expensive supplements, they arent pushing membership rates to participate. They have pushed it as being simple, straight forward, and best of all....free.

  7. #7
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasG View Post
    I'm with ya brihead. I don't know if HCT-12 was claimed as groundbreaking or not though. Just seems to be a simple solid straightforward routine. I'm giving it a run right now for summer I don't expect anything magical from it but it is interesting so far as I've never done rest/pause so much.
    I agree. Good luck with it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    I want MAGIC...thanks for ruining the dream

    Seriously, all the things you mentioned is why it's a good program and why I decided to give it a whirl. I don't think it's ground breaking, but it is different in that it's presented in an easy to read, all inclusive package (routine, science, nutrition, FAQ, and online support) and it's FREE. Also, I have never done rest/pause reps before, so I'm very curious what that will do for me.
    This is a very good point...it lays out everything you need to be sucessful. I'm not sure about the rest pause thing, but I'm sure I'll hear about how it goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Roberts View Post
    All very good points, but points I actually make in the 'Principles' article - etc.

    In the original draft, I include a comparison of 5 or 6 popular and effective programs, from 5/3/1, to Starting Strength to Max-OT and a few in between, highlighting the frequency, total number of reps, intensity etc to demonstrate that the 'principles' are not violated even in quite different looking programs. In fact I think at some point, that chart'll be posted.

    As for magic rep range, I clearly demonstrate that for most trainees most of the time there is a best rep range based on recruiting the greatest number of motor units with the greatest potential for growth and fatiguing them appropriately.

    Question I have for you is, given 'all the experience and knowledge' you have 'about lifting' what do you think constitutes 'groundbreaking' and why would you think there is 'magic' still to be found especially given the tone of my article?
    I wasn't trying to come across as arrogant. The only reason I said 'with all my experience and knowledge', was because I was simply pointing out that I'm a guy that has a descent amount of experience under the bar, and understands how different types of training and nutrition manipulation affects my body. I have read tons and tons of information, and through experience have learned what is good info, and what isn't.... I wasn't trying to sound like a know-it-all. I apologize if I did, but I was really just trying to point out that I was an intelligent guy able to make an informed decision.

    That said, I truly was wondering what makes this the 'best muscle building program'. There has been a lot of hype about this program, and now that it's out, there is even a whole section of the forum dedicated to it. To me, all that hype is like saying, "we've found the magical pill to get you HUGE". Now, I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but honestly I'm wondering what exactly makes it so much different from other solid programs.

    As others have pointed out, I got some answers - It lays EVERYTHING out from nutrition, FAQs, routine, exercise selection and choice of variation, etc....all without trying to sell something. And yes, it is definately a great-looking simple, and straight-forward program.

    Quote Originally Posted by alin View Post
    To be fair, I didn't see the creators of the program mention that it is. One of the primary targets of this program is those people who are new to lifting and complain about not making any gains. For those people this program IS groundbreaking, because it is easy and accessible. There is also the fact that it tells you how to eat, which is a very good thing. The latter issue really goes unmentioned in many programs.
    I agree, out of all the crap that is out there for newbies to read, this is EXCELLENT....the only problem is will a newbie choose this over FLEX's newest "Bicep blasting routine"??? The 'hype' is a good thing for newbies reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titalis View Post
    Also to be fair, Ive read the guys numerous times stating in posts that this program is great because they arent pushing expensive supplements, they arent pushing membership rates to participate. They have pushed it as being simple, straight forward, and best of all....free.
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  8. #8
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    I think the issue you have is with how we have promoted the routine rather than the routine itself

    Look, to get people to be interesting in something, you have to shout a bit - even blow your own trumpet to a degree. It's simple marketing and you don't often see something released without some form of it nowadays.

    We chose to actually take a fairly subtle approach to be fair (compared to how other products and services can be released). We could have come out with very bold and specific claims and made up all sorts of new terms for things, but we chose to just put out something that was very good and very easy to understand instead.

    However, we wouldn't do ourselves any justice if we came out in bland way and said something like, 'look, this is not THE best routine, in fact there are plenty of good routines out there, but it's pretty good - give it a try' We spent a lot of money and time on this program and we genuinely believe it to be superior to most of what's out there from a building lean muscle and strength perspective, so we chose to be subtle but also confident and bold where we felt we should be.

    Hope that gives you a bit more perspective on how we chose to launch it
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  9. #9
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    Quoting you may have implied condescension, not what was meant and you didn't come across as arrogant.

    I'm not going to disagree with you for a second but as you rightly point out in your second post, you have to balance promoting the content with fact and as I point out in the first few sentences of the 'Principles' article no-one really wants to know the facts/the truth/how it really is. People are drawn to 'biceps blasting routine' etc as you say.
    How much interest do you think this routine would garner if it were called and promoted as 'The Train hard lifting weights in an approriate rep range and eat accordingly program'?
    Fact is every training program at its core must adhere to these principles it always was and always will be (again stuff I say in the article).
    Scratch the surface of IBB and although it is claimed revolutionary it adheres to the same principles that govern growth. Sure there's more than one way to skin a cat, but it's still a cat.

    Is the program groundbreaking? It's different. Is it magic? It's certainly focused, it attacks muscle growth, tension and fatigue management from a different angle, and it's likely more effective than most out there for most of the people most of the time, especially if getting bigger is the goal.

    You mention making an informed decision; the purpose of the 'Principles' article was to enable those without your experience to do the same.
    I'd be interested to hear your feedback on that article.

  10. #10
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    Also, heres how I see it. We KNOW this program will produce EXCELLENT results. We've proved that with the test group and we know it adheres to the principles to gaining muscle and strength as Daniel outlined in his principles article. So, whatever we can do to persuade as many people to use it as possible, it;s for the greater good!
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  11. #11
    Senior Member brihead301's Avatar
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    I gotcha now. I understand where you guys are coming from, and why you chose to promote it in the way you did. You do have to look at the marketing aspect, and you are right, 'Bicep blasting routine' does sound much more appealing to the average guy then 'Train hard and eat accordingly'. I didn't think about that at first, but I understand now.

    About the 'principles'....well, I think it's EXCELLENT and spot on. I didn't think to look at it from a new guy's perspective rather then my own. 4 or 5 years ago when I read 'The new rules of lifting', all that info was completely new to me - Do mostly compounds, focus on squats, deads, presses, train movements, always try to make each workout better then the previous one, eat properly, allow for recovery, etc....Before that book, I trained for years with absolutely no knowledge of any of that stuff.....I was just you 'average gym rat' that took advice from other average gym rats. Then one day I read that book, and realized that I trained differently then most people that I see at the gym....yet I was getting better results then I had ever experienced before.....Shortly after I read that book, I joined WBB and everyone seemed to be on the same page as me.

    After years of being a part of this forum, I had basically disregarded everything I used to think 'pre-NROL' reading, and it's now just common knowledge to me to train the way I do since it has basically been engrained into my head. That is why when I originally read the 'principles' section of HCT-12, I thought "Ya ok....I already know all this...." But then I forgot how I used to be 5 years ago, when all that information was unknown to me.

    So now that I understand the marketing aspect, and see that it is backed up by a solid program, with all the necessary information to go along with it, it makes much more sense to me now.

    Good job fellas!
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    I can tell you as one fo the testers this routine is spot on. My bench in the last 10 weeks has gone from 185 on my 6+2+2+2 to 245 and next week i think im going to push 255 if i feel as good as I did monday night. Now background for me, im a fairly experienced lifter that took about a 10yr lazy slump and just started back into lifting about 6 months before the program. Is some of my gains my regaining my lost strength? yes, but thats all of it. I truly believe this program has educated me and given me the tools to take my lifting to heights I did not think I could achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titalis View Post
    I can tell you as one fo the testers this routine is spot on. My bench in the last 10 weeks has gone from 185 on my 6+2+2+2 to 245 and next week i think im going to push 255 if i feel as good as I did monday night. Now background for me, im a fairly experienced lifter that took about a 10yr lazy slump and just started back into lifting about 6 months before the program. Is some of my gains my regaining my lost strength? yes, but thats all of it. I truly believe this program has educated me and given me the tools to take my lifting to heights I did not think I could achieve.
    I would be very interested to see some of the results of the other testers.

    The routine, and just as importantly, the articles outlining the aspects of the routine look solid guys. Good work!
    Work hard. Stay humble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by one rep under View Post
    I would be very interested to see some of the results of the other testers.

    The routine, and just as importantly, the articles outlining the aspects of the routine look solid guys. Good work!
    To give you a perspective from someone on the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm a novice lifter and had never really bench pressed before. My bench went from 155 to 195, and I've gained about 50 lbs so far.

    HCT-12 has been quite "magical" for me.
    TB

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    One thing that I REALLY like about this program is that it was FREE! Most of the time you'd have to pay for a program like this. Thanks guys.

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    +1 to pure water.

    Thank you very much guys.

  17. #17
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    My two cents ;)

    Just a quick bio before i comment on this. Just my ideas anywho.

    19yrs old, gym work for 2years made good novice gains as anyone would, broke a wrist and then slumped.

    After this slump i found it pretty hard to get back into working out, notice i said 'Gym Work' as i do not class my uninformed attempts at workout out 'Lifting' (Anymore)

    I have to say one of the major things in my way was a lack of information tha twas easily available, and in one place.

    I completely agree that if i wanted it enough i could have found it, bought it, stole it or anything like that. But finding simple diet plans that are linked to a simple workout that is not overcomplicated with a microrganismcreatinenhancingbicepbustingspectropill that is 99Dollars a pop was a lot like hard work.

    My point is that it seemed like a lot of effort on my part in order to find any coherant information in one place and as i had never really experienced what a real workout plan felt like i had less motivation to find one. If that makes much sense.

    Ok the information is out there for you if you want to search but anything that gets more people in the Gym and enjoying it is good in my view, hey might even put on a few lbs as well

    Although i did find the information a while back and got into proper lifting before this program was realeased i would have loved this a eyar ago
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  18. #18
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    I Got bored of my old program, SO I Decided to give this a chance LOL 5 more weeks I Guess then back to my hardcore training But yehfor now I Like this program I actually feel exhausted..somewhat after my Work outs.
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  19. #19
    Guerrilla Journalist Steve Colescott's Avatar
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    When I hear about a groundbreaking, magical program my BS detector immediately goes off. There are dozens of ways to make a ham and cheese omelette but that all involve the same basic ingredients cooked in a pretty similar manner. What Daniel Roberts did was sort through those options and make sense of things with a well-designed, result-producing, easily-utilized template.

    The basics have become the basics because they just plain work. Magic programs are nothing more than glammer, slight-of-hand or illusion. Give me hard, "leave your breakfast on the floor," basics with heavy weights any day!

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