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Thread: So I've made some progress but looking for some advice on where to go now. (pics inc)

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    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    So I've made some progress but looking for some advice on where to go now. (pics inc)

    Hi guys,

    Firstly a bit about me.... I've been hovering about here since about january reading up on workouts and taking notes on things. I've always been quite weak and slim but I'm looking to put on a bit of mass, I currently weigh around 65kg but would like to get up to about 75kg. That way I wouldn't have to buy XS or XXS T-shirts, which is really, really tough to find, lol... Some shops I've had to go with age 14-15 shirts... seriously!

    So what have I done so far... I've been on Starting Strength since about mid January. I've found my lifts have gone up loads but my actual body hasn't changed a great deal. I've put on around 2kg, which in just over 4 months isn't a great deal I guess. I have been eating a lot but I want to stay as lean as possible. From what I've read online my problem may be that I'm performing lifts in the 4-6 rep range which is more strength orientated than hypertrophy orientated. I also try to lift heavy and explosively, which I guess isn't helping.

    Pictures taken 30/04/10





    So what do I want...? I have access to the gym 4-5 days a week because I work there So literally I could train every day if I wanted. I could ask people here for advice about workouts but to be honest it is very commercial and a lot of them just give me crossfit style stuff, which even I know for muscle mass is pretty redundant. If anyone could help me put together a 3-5 day a week lifting program to put on lean muscle I'd really appreciate it.

    If I've missed any important info please ask

  2. #2
    Senior Member tnathletics2b's Avatar
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    Perhaps the most important info you missed is your diet. What kind of diet are you on? Most likely, if you aren't gaining weight you aren't eating right or enough.
    Most people pray for a lighter load in life...ever thought of praying for a stronger back?

    Goals as of 2/08/11 (current) goal:
    Squat: (505) 535, Deadlift: (475) 500, Bench: (325) 350 Total: 1305 (1385)
    BW: 225 as of 02/01/2011 Goal: 205 by May 1, 2011

  3. #3
    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    Breakfast
    Porridge - 35 grams
    Whey Protein - 35 grams

    Snacks
    100g Chicken
    1 Medium Apple
    1 Yogurt

    Lunch
    Sweet Potatoe
    150g tuna

    Pre-Training
    Raisons

    Post Training
    Whey Protein
    Fruit

    Dinner
    Chicken/Fish/Venason with loads of vegetables

    Before Bed
    ZMA Tablets (Help me sleep)
    Whey Protein

  4. #4
    Senior Member skinny99's Avatar
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    If you trully want to get bigger you are gonna need to eat! And it isn't always got to be "clean" either! Meat,meat,eggs,cheese and milk should be the staples of your diet. You will never get bigger with your ribs showing and a six pack. Really look at your goals if you wanna have real size your gonna have to put up with some moderate BF increases for a while. Don't worry about getting fat,your really good at being skinny! You can get back to it anytime you want.

    SS is a great bulking program if you will eat to support your gains. Dedicate yourself to eating and adding weight to the bar and you will grow!
    "The deadlift is more functional in that it’s very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy *h*t up off the ground" Rip

    Max 3x5 Goal 3x5 by 12/31/11 *1X5
    Bench (245) (275) 285x1x1 335
    Dead (385)* (445) 435x1x1 505
    Squat (320) (355) 355X1X1 405
    Squat (195) (275) 20 Reppers!
    (950) (1075) 1075 1245 Goals (Not including 20 reps)
    5'10" 288Lbs 02/01/2011 Goal Weight 230 On my way back from a Break!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    I think one of my biggest problems is that I don't like red meat or dairy... Literally the only dairy I eat is yoghurt because cheese, milk, butter, etc make me feel sick. I've also never eaten red meat (to the extent that last year I was on iron tablets because I became anaemic). I have started eating cottage cheese and venison from time to time (maybe twice a week each).

    I have been putting weight on, it's not a great deal I know... I don't want to get huge so probably like you have pointed out if I notice I am looking fat I slow down my eating a bit. Believe it or not though I'm really having to work to eat as much as I am - you should have seen my diet last year... it was around 900 calories a day, lol.

    I think now I'm eating around 2000-2500 and my recovery is good. When I was on WS4SB last year I found running and lifting more volume made me more hungry and I was able to eat more, since being on Starting Strength though I find I'm less hungry.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    SS made you less hungry? What does your squat progression look like?

    If you are squatting at near maximal (+75% of 1RM) levels 3x a week, this should be up-regulating your hunger. Big time.
    My 10 week cut results

    "Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle."

  7. #7
    Senior Member tnathletics2b's Avatar
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    65 kilograms is roughly equal to 143 pounds...you have a long way to go before you are "fat." You gotta decide what you want to do. You wanna gain 10 kilos, eat like you wanna gain 10 kilos! One post you say you wanna gain weight, then another post you say you back off on food because you start to gain the weight you said you wanted to gain!

    Look, you weigh 65 kilos. Eat, eat, eat!
    Most people pray for a lighter load in life...ever thought of praying for a stronger back?

    Goals as of 2/08/11 (current) goal:
    Squat: (505) 535, Deadlift: (475) 500, Bench: (325) 350 Total: 1305 (1385)
    BW: 225 as of 02/01/2011 Goal: 205 by May 1, 2011

  8. #8
    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnathletics2b View Post
    65 kilograms is roughly equal to 143 pounds...you have a long way to go before you are "fat." You gotta decide what you want to do. You wanna gain 10 kilos, eat like you wanna gain 10 kilos! One post you say you wanna gain weight, then another post you say you back off on food because you start to gain the weight you said you wanted to gain!

    Look, you weigh 65 kilos. Eat, eat, eat!
    Truth.

    People just don't seem to understand how much eating and heavy lifting is actually required to gain a significant amount of body mass. Especially if they want that mass to be muscular.

    This issue is also compounded by the fat-phobia most gym goers have. For a skinny man-boy to become a strong he-man, through natural means, you have to lift heavy and eat almost uncomfortable amounts of food.
    My 10 week cut results

    "Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle."

  9. #9
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    For a skinny man-boy to become a strong he-man, through natural means, you have to lift heavy and eat almost uncomfortable amounts of food.
    Nothing to add, I just wanted to quote that. Awesome!
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    Senior Member tnathletics2b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Nothing to add, I just wanted to quote that. Awesome!
    Haha, agreed!
    Most people pray for a lighter load in life...ever thought of praying for a stronger back?

    Goals as of 2/08/11 (current) goal:
    Squat: (505) 535, Deadlift: (475) 500, Bench: (325) 350 Total: 1305 (1385)
    BW: 225 as of 02/01/2011 Goal: 205 by May 1, 2011

  11. #11
    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    haha, I understand. I guess I got worried I was over doing the food as I started to lose my abs.

    I want to gain weight but I want to gain it the right way. I'd rather gain 1ib of lean muscle a month for 20 months than gain 10kg in 3 months and look fat. But I do understand also that I am probably being paranoid, always been quite weird about my weight and stuff.

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    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reala View Post
    haha, I understand. I guess I got worried I was over doing the food as I started to lose my abs.

    I want to gain weight but I want to gain it the right way. I'd rather gain 1ib of lean muscle a month for 20 months than gain 10kg in 3 months and look fat. But I do understand also that I am probably being paranoid, always been quite weird about my weight and stuff.
    Well, it's good that you realize lean gains are a slow process. Keeping that in perspective, gradually increase the density of your training. By that I mean progression through intensity AND/OR volume. Track your body weight on a weekly basis. If it's going in the right direction by .5-2 lbs a week and your strength is increasing, you are on the right path.

    If you are gaining too much BF; either accept it and plan to cut if off later, scale back calories, or keep calories the same and up the workload.

    From my personal experience, I went from a skinny 159lbs in October (right off a cut from 175lbs) to a muscular with some belly fat 194lbs by early March. In the past 5-6ish weeks I've lost almost 20lbs down to 175lbs.

    In my first cut I simply ate low carbs and low cal with hill sprints about 3x a week. My bulk was with a high calorie diet with SS like programming, and the past 5-6 week cut has been a mixture of carb cycling with intermittent fasting combined with a 5/3/1 style program. As a note, I think a modified 5/3/1 program is great for a cut bc it keeps your intensity moderately high while cutting volume.
    Last edited by Raleighwood; 05-04-2010 at 07:50 AM.
    My 10 week cut results

    "Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle."

  13. #13
    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for the advice so far... the food is great.

    In regards to reps, is 4-6 right or should I up it to 8-12?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reala View Post
    Thanks so much for the advice so far... the food is great.

    In regards to reps, is 4-6 right or should I up it to 8-12?
    A lot of that really depends on your body type (the %s of your muscle fiber types). Either should be ok, as long as you are lifting the right %s in relation to the rep range.

    Some suggestions you could try:
    • 4-6 on your compound lifts (squat, bench, press, DL) and 8-12 on your accessory lifts.
    • Cycle the rep ranges every 2 weeks, each new cycle start slightly heavier than the last cycle of that rep range
    • Cycle the rep ranges monthly
    My 10 week cut results

    "Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    Truth.

    People just don't seem to understand how much eating and heavy lifting is actually required to gain a significant amount of body mass. Especially if they want that mass to be muscular.

    This issue is also compounded by the fat-phobia most gym goers have. For a skinny man-boy to become a strong he-man, through natural means, you have to lift heavy and eat almost uncomfortable amounts of food.
    Ha ha. This reminds of a Peary Rader quote. Apparently its stuck on the wall at Rips gym:

    "So often readers will follow our articles month after month and will never get the point of what we are trying to put over. Actually, all they read it for is to be entertained and to hear that others have made big gains and that they can make them too if they try. They will take their workouts haphazardly. They will follow the diet advice in the same manner and then wonder why they don't gain. When we say you must work hard, we mean HARD. When we say you must use heavy weights, we mean HEAVY WEIGHTS. When we say you must push yourself, we mean you must DRIVE YOURSELF UNMERCIFULLY. When we say you must drink four quarts of milk, we do not mean two. When we ask you to eat more food, we mean more food, not a canary bird diet. If we tell you to eat five meals a day, we do not mean two skimpy ones per day. We know that many of you follow advice in this indifferent manner and you will not gain as long as you do. Let this be a turning point in your training. Make a resolution to go "all out" this coming year and become a superman."

    --Peary Reader, Iron Man Magazine, 1958

  16. #16
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    For a skinny man-boy to become a strong he-man, through natural means, you have to lift heavy and eat almost uncomfortable amounts of food.
    Not much to add, but I will tell you that for me to go from around 160 to 200 I had to eat enough food to make me miserable. And you need to do it on a daily basis. Not 2 out of 3 days or 5 days a week but every single day.

    Good luck,
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reala View Post
    Hi guys,

    Firstly a bit about me.... I've been hovering about here since about january reading up on workouts and taking notes on things. I've always been quite weak and slim but I'm looking to put on a bit of mass, I currently weigh around 65kg but would like to get up to about 75kg. That way I wouldn't have to buy XS or XXS T-shirts, which is really, really tough to find, lol... Some shops I've had to go with age 14-15 shirts... seriously!

    So what do I want...? I have access to the gym 4-5 days a week because I work there So literally I could train every day if I wanted. I could ask people here for advice about workouts but to be honest it is very commercial and a lot of them just give me crossfit style stuff, which even I know for muscle mass is pretty redundant. If anyone could help me put together a 3-5 day a week lifting program to put on lean muscle I'd really appreciate it.

    If I've missed any important info please ask
    Just by looking at your pics and what your goals are you are someone I would recommend doing an all out Bulk up diet for at least 4-6 months minimum. Unless you are willing to put away the mirror and be ok with losing the definition in your abs you will never develope the type of physique you want.

    I know you want lean gains, but your current needs state requires a lot of calories!! I would have you eating anywhere from 4000-6000 cal a day from a mixture of clean and junk foods. You need calorie dense foods that are easily processed so you can handle more food volume and get your calorie requirements.

    Also remember Protein is important but at this stage your protein sparing nutrients are extremely important. Protein should be about 30% of your calorie intake and the rest from carbs and fats. You have to build a solid foundation and no matter what training program you are on if your diet isn't were it needs to be your gains will suffer.

    You can't sculpt a pepple!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    I know you want lean gains, but your current needs state requires a lot of calories!! I would have you eating anywhere from 4000-6000 cal a day from a mixture of clean and junk foods. You need calorie dense foods that are easily processed so you can handle more food volume and get your calorie requirements.
    Allen and everyone who has responded are giving you sound advice.

    Until recently I was quite skinny (160ish lbs at 6’6”) until I started tracking my diet (using fitday.com) and hitting 4,000+ calories/day (I’m now up to 5,500/day and 212 lbs).

    I’m doing the HCT-12 program and adding a total of 4 oz. of olive/canola oil to my meal replacement/weight gainer shakes each day, which amounts to an easy extra 1,000 calories. I’ve developed a little belly fat in the process, but as Allen said,
    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    Unless you are willing to put away the mirror and be ok with losing the definition in your abs you will never develope the type of physique you want.

  20. #20
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    maybe for a few workouts switch to higher rep range and lower weight? go for the hypertrophy training, go for speed on the lift and slow down on the lowering of the weight

  21. #21
    student of the game Runty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StLRPh View Post
    Not much to add, but I will tell you that for me to go from around 160 to 200 I had to eat enough food to make me miserable. And you need to do it on a daily basis. Not 2 out of 3 days or 5 days a week but every single day.

    Good luck,
    Ain't that the truth. I'm right at 194 from a 164.5 in about 3 months. The amount off food I'm eating now makes me hate food sometimes. Best method I've found to maximize calories in a sitting is try to eat as much food as I can before I hate the taste/texture. Then chug 2x 15oz glasses of whole milk. Since I usually get sick of chewing well before my stomach is actually maxed out, this just jams it full useful calories.

    Then there's always the 1400 calorie shakes that just skip the chewing all together. Make these just big enough so you feel your gag reflex a bit at the last sip.
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  22. #22
    Look ma, I deadlifted. el_Mariachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    Just by looking at your pics and what your goals are you are someone I would recommend doing an all out Bulk up diet for at least 4-6 months minimum. Unless you are willing to put away the mirror and be ok with losing the definition in your abs you will never develope the type of physique you want.

    I know you want lean gains, but your current needs state requires a lot of calories!! I would have you eating anywhere from 4000-6000 cal a day from a mixture of clean and junk foods. You need calorie dense foods that are easily processed so you can handle more food volume and get your calorie requirements.

    Also remember Protein is important but at this stage your protein sparing nutrients are extremely important. Protein should be about 30% of your calorie intake and the rest from carbs and fats. You have to build a solid foundation and no matter what training program you are on if your diet isn't were it needs to be your gains will suffer.
    Perfectly said. I'll also echo the gent above who said you WILL be uncomfortable with the amount of food you've got to eat, and another who said go for liquid to top off the old tank. For a serious bulk I took a shake a guy off this forum posted a couple years ago. A few cups of whole milk, scoop or two of ice cream, couple tablespoons of peanut butter, and another couple tablespoons of olive oil, then some protein powder. When you feel like you can't eat any more, slam that baby down. You can cut later and find your abs again after you become a beast.

    Prepare to meet man-strength.
    Last edited by el_Mariachi; 05-05-2010 at 02:10 PM.
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  23. #23
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    As the guys state, you're just not eating enough. Your posted diet looks more like a cutting diet!! How you train is quite frankly irrelevant until you get this nailed.

    Don't worry about getting all fancy with the diet numbers, just focus on eating more. You're going to need to track calories, purely to force yourself to eat more and understand how little you have been eating.

    tomsids is a great example of this. 4 weeks of consistently eating 4,000+ calories and 4 weeks of 5,000 calories say him gain 50lbs.

    1. Sign up for fitday.com

    2. Eat a minimum of 4,000 calories a day. Don;t sweat the protein/carb/fat numbers too much at this stage as overall calories are the most important thing. Just keep protein reasonably high at about 250g and let the rest be what it be.

    3. Hit the weights HARD and try to move around as little as much beyond that.

    You're going to need to learn about calorie dense foods, have a chat with tomsids and he will give you his fitday page url and you can see what he has eaten every day for literally the last 8 weeks.
    Last edited by Joe Black; 05-06-2010 at 01:34 AM.
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Reala's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice so far guys...

    I have done a ton of research and decided that by spreading out my meals a bit more and eating a bit more often I'll probably be a better able to eat. Right now I've decided to eat a bagel and a protein shake when I wake up at 6:00am as opposed to waiting for breakfast in work at 9:00am. Stuff like that adds about 400 calories. I'm going to try 3000 calories for about a month and see how I feel. Right now I'm struggling on about 1800, so that's quite a jump!

    I have decided to go for a 5x5 program to up my volume and work on my technique a little. I went with Madcows because it gives you three to four weeks of lighter sets until you start breaking your previous 5RM. My deadlift and squatting technique could definitely use some work so that's pretty much perfect for me.

    I'll keep a log and let you know how I progress.

  25. #25
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    Good plan.

    If you eat a large breakfaster, lunch and evening meal and snack as regularly as you can inbetween, you shoult get to that 3,000 easily.

    Just try and eat as dense foods as possible, A bagel and a shake is still a light breakfast. Throw in some cheese and ham with the bagel and a bar of some sort and it's already a bigger meal. Learn to like peanut butter too

    You should also consider a really good weight gainer like Maximus.
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