The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    My perfect split

    If I could design my own beginners routine, what would it look like?

    I've thought about this more than once or twice. I've often wondered what my beginner routine would look like if I designed it myself with the knowledge that I now have. I would take into account that the more often you work a lift, the faster progress you will make. But, I would also have to be aware of recovery, so I wouldn't want to work them too often either. Of course I would focus on a handful of the best lifts, use a good progression scheme, and focus my sets/reps on strength gains. Lastly, I would be very careful of overtraining certain muscle groups that can lead to injury or imbalance. For instance, training the "pushing" muscles too often can lead to shoulder problems and bad posture. The lower back can take a real beating from some of the exercises, so that would have to be managed too.

    So, with all that in mind, I would design a two day split and alternate them three days a week. That would have me hitting every lift 3 times in two weeks. One day would focus on the low back, hips, hams, and core. The other day would focus on the pressing structure. That will give those areas 3 or 4 days rest between sessions. The upper back will be hit at every session because these exercises don't lead to posture problems, don't have a lot of over-use injuries associated with them, and seem to recover quickly.

    So, without further ado, here is the split I came up with...

    Routine A:
    Squat - 1x20
    Stiff leg Dead lift. - 3x5
    Weighted Chin-ups - 3x5
    Sit-ups - 3 x Max Reps

    Routine B:
    Bench Press - 3x5
    1 Arm Db Row - 3x5
    Military Press - 3x5
    Barbell Curl - 3x5

    Critique, Flame, Discuss, Have fun with it...
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  3. #2
    House Lannister
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    No dips???

    No Deads???


  4. #3
    Father of Three Bosch232's Avatar
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    Flame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just kidding. It's Friday evening and I'm drinkin' with the wife...
    "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." ~ C.S. Lewis

  5. #4
    Senior Member tom183's Avatar
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    If I could go back in time I would make my 16 year old self do the following routine. This is also two separate workouts alternated 3 days a week.

    Day A:

    Bench Press: 3x5
    Squat: 3x5
    Bent Over Row: 3x5
    OHP: 3x5

    Day B

    Squat: 3x5
    Chins: 4 sets stopping 1 rep short of failure
    Dips: 4 sets stopping 1 rep short of failure
    Deadlift: 3x5

  6. #5
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    No dips???

    No Deads???

    You could sub them in...I would sub in the dips for sure.
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  7. #6
    House Lannister
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    You could sub them in...I would sub in the dips for sure.
    Why no deadlifts though...You have the stiff deads I see, but no conventionals.

  8. #7
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    I would do some type of ABCD set up 3 times per week. A and C would be leg focused. One would be based around the squat and the other would be based around deadlifts as the main exercise. B and D would be upper body based around the bench and oh press as the main lifts. So

    Week 1

    Sun-A
    Tues-B
    Thurs-C

    Week 2

    Sun-D
    Tues-A
    Thurs- B

    A would be Squats 3 x 5 ramping in some type of percentage. Increase weight each workout. Deads 3 x10 with about 50% of max. Glute Ham Raise and Abs

    B would be Bench. Same Progression as Squat. OH Press- same as A dead work sets. Dips and Chins

    C would be deads, squats, glute ham raises and abs like A

    D would be OH Press, bench, dips, and chings like B

    Simple and basic. Practice and improve the main lifts.

    And so on.



    Or I would just do SS.


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  9. #8
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    Why no deadlifts though...You have the stiff deads I see, but no conventionals.
    What would the deadlifts cover that the squats and stiffs don't?
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  10. #9
    House Lannister
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    What would the deadlifts cover that the squats and stiffs don't?
    Nothing, but I would figure that for a beginner program you'd want all the conventional exercises in there so that the beginner would get the form down.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Drew92's Avatar
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    To me a good routine for a beginner would be one that they would stay consistent with. As well as learning the movements of the lifts before they are concerned about weight. For me my biggest set backs as a beginner were the injuries from improper form.

  12. #11
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    I would figure that for a beginner program you'd want all the conventional exercises in there so that the beginner would get the form down.
    That is a valid point. But have you ever tried doing traditional deadlift after a brutal set of 20 rep squats?

    There would be a lot of oportunity for me to learn more lifts later in my training life. This would have been just a starting place.
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  13. #12
    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    I am a little skeptical of the effectiveness of 20 rep squats for beginners...

    20 reps is a high rep count, and technique would surely falter. If technique weren't an issue, it'd be ok.

    I feel like if you were doing a 2 day/week program, you should balance out the work out to hit the full body both times. Instead of having what looks like a lower body day, with 1 pulling movement and a upper body pressing day with 1 pulling movement.

    I suggest something like:

    A:
    Squat 3x5 or 3x10 depending on technique and response of trainee
    Standing Overhead Press 3x5
    Chins 3xmax or weighted 3x8
    Optional accessory work: Dips, Seated/Chest supported Row, Curls, Arnold Presses

    B:
    Trap bar or conventional DL: 3x5
    Bench: 3x5
    Chins or row: 3x8
    Optional accessory work: Dips, DB bench fly presses, one armed rows, lat pulls, lunges
    Last edited by Raleighwood; 08-28-2010 at 09:05 AM.
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  14. #13
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    I am a little skeptical of the effectiveness of 20 rep squats for beginners...

    20 reps is a high rep count, and technique would surely falter. If technique weren't an issue, it'd be ok.
    That's why 20 rep squats are so good for beginners. First of all, you start light; none of that 10 RM cr@p. Then it gives high reps to practice form. Lastly, there is nothing as effective for aver-all strength and growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    I feel like if you were doing a 2 day/week program, you should balance out the work out to hit the full body both times.
    It is a three day routine, so I seperated the low back sessions and shoulder sessions to keep from over-working those areas.
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  15. #14
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    I would actually tweak your original program just a bit and have an A1 and A2 workout. A1 would be the A workout you listed. The A2 workout would be 3x5 of squats followed by a ramp up to 1x5 of DL's instead of the squats and stiff-legged DL's. Then you would just do A1, B, A2, B, A1, B, A2, etc.... Overall the program you have is better than about 99.9% of what people come up with on there own, so it would certainly build a good base to work from. I would also agree with the sentiment that you would have to start very light on the 20 rep SQ's and make sure technique doesn't completely go in the dumper as they fatigue.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Aslin's Avatar
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    Off-Road, have you actually ever read SS or any decent lore on weight training?

    20 rep squats are terrible for begginers, there's nothing better than the standard 3x5 deal for the average begginer, especially when it comes to squats...

    And as for Bench pressing and overhead pressing on the same day, thats plain ******ed, you cant make any decent gains doing overhead press straight after bench press (or vis-versa), thats just dumb dude....


    Guys this off-road kid is a moron... Go buy SS and read it, do it word for word, maybe sub Powercleans with Barbell rows until you get stuck DLing. Dont do stif legged DL's either, thats just ******ed....


    I'll give you a great Bigginer program right now cuz this guy has really pissed me off..


    (3 day split)


    day 1

    Squats 3x5 across
    Bench Press 3x5 across
    DL 1x5
    Chins/Pullups/Barbel Rows 3xfailure/ 3x5

    Day 2

    Squats 3x5 across (2x5 of 80% of last workout if not recovered)
    Overhead press 3x5 across (alternate these with bench press every other week)
    Powercleans 5x3 across


    Day 3

    Squats 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Chins/pullups/rows 3x failure/3x5
    dips 3xfailure till youget to 3x20, then start adding weight


    Wow, this looks like SS, maybe thats because you literally cant get better than SS for an aspireing athlete/bodybuilder ecceteraa.

    I would say that I often do chinups on monday + friday, and then Rows on wednesday, then the following week i'd alternate, so i'd then do Rows mon+ fri, and chins on wed.... Ab work is really not needed, especially not needed twice every other week like the idiot suggests... Your abs get plenty of isometric work in the core lifts. Maybe evey other week, do 3x15 weighted at some point, prolly a friday.

    Seriously guys I hate it when ppl give advice when they dont know what they are talking about... It's EASY to give a begginer advice, because he will adapt, if you do what this dude says and do 20 rep squats, you will adapt because you're new to the game. But no way as fast as 3x5 2-3 times per week...

    peace.

    p.s

    I still find it hard to believe you would get them to train 2x20 squats per week every other week. Seriously dude, ****ing LEARN
    Last edited by Aslin; 08-29-2010 at 11:06 AM.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslin View Post
    Off-Road, have you actually ever read SS or any decent lore on weight training?

    20 rep squats are terrible for begginers, there's nothing better than the standard 3x5 deal for the average begginer, especially when it comes to squats...

    And as for Bench pressing and overhead pressing on the same day, thats plain ******ed, you cant make any decent gains doing overhead press straight after bench press (or vis-versa), thats just dumb dude....


    Guys this off-road kid is a moron... Go buy SS and read it, do it word for word, maybe sub Powercleans with Barbell rows until you get stuck DLing. Dont do stif legged DL's either, thats just ******ed....


    I'll give you a great Bigginer program right now cuz this guy has really pissed me off..


    (3 day split)


    day 1

    Squats 3x5 across
    Bench Press 3x5 across
    DL 1x5
    Chins/Pullups/Barbel Rows 3xfailure/ 3x5

    Day 2

    Squats 3x5 across (2x5 of 80% of last workout if not recovered)
    Overhead press 3x5 across (alternate these with bench press every other week)
    Powercleans 5x3 across


    Day 3

    Squats 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Chins/pullups/rows 3x failure/3x5
    dips 3xfailure till youget to 3x20, then start adding weight


    Wow, this looks like SS, maybe thats because you literally cant get better than SS for an aspireing athlete/bodybuilder ecceteraa.

    I would say that I often do chinups on monday + friday, and then Rows on wednesday, then the following week i'd alternate, so i'd then do Rows mon+ fri, and chins on wed.... Ab work is really not needed, especially not needed twice every other week like the idiot suggests... Your abs get plenty of isometric work in the core lifts. Maybe evey other week, do 3x15 weighted at some point, prolly a friday.

    Seriously guys I hate it when ppl give advice when they dont know what they are talking about... It's EASY to give a begginer advice, because he will adapt, if you do what this dude says and do 20 rep squats, you will adapt because you're new to the game. But no way as fast as 3x5 2-3 times per week...

    peace.

    p.s

    I still find it hard to believe you would get them to train 2x20 squats per week every other week. Seriously dude, ****ing LEARN
    Are you serious man?
    Offroad knows more then almost everyone in this forum.

  18. #17
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslin View Post
    Off-Road, have you actually ever read SS or any decent lore on weight training?
    Haha...Okay, I'll bite...

    Yes, I have read a lot of lore on weight training. Do names like McRoberts, McCallum, Rader, Liestner, Kubik, Whelan, Christy, Hise, Strassen, and Toohey (just to name a few) ring a bell? If not, maybe you should do some reading yourself. Every one of those well known writers recommends 20 rep squat for beginners.

    I am a big proponent of Starting Strength. I've recomended it at least a couple of times here I think (maybe more like 100 times, I lose count). Seriously, there are many quality routines for people to use as beginners, I'm just throwing something different out there, and it's been tested many, many times with great success.

    Lastly, I'm sorry I piss you off. But, this is the internet, not real life, "Have some tolerance." We run a clean and friendly forum, we don't like personal attacks. Please abide by the rules.
    Last edited by Off Road; 08-29-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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  19. #18
    Senior Member Aslin's Avatar
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    But .... bahhh... beh meh...

  20. #19
    Senior Member Raleighwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    That's why 20 rep squats are so good for beginners. First of all, you start light; none of that 10 RM cr@p. Then it gives high reps to practice form. Lastly, there is nothing as effective for aver-all strength and growth.


    It is a three day routine, so I seperated the low back sessions and shoulder sessions to keep from over-working those areas.
    I disagree with this...

    Lower weight is necessary for initial form coaching and development, but imo using weight that is low enough to allow that many reps is not going to be a significant training stimulus or heavy enough to reinforce good technique.

    For example, try squatting in good position and technique with just the bar... It's hard as hell to keep a good position, at least for me, because the weight is almost too light to allow proper depth/position.

    Going lower reps, heavier weight, and more sets seems more practical than just throwing someone on a 20 rep set and hoping they don't falter half way through.
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  21. #20
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    Lower weight is necessary for initial form coaching and development, but imo using weight that is low enough to allow that many reps is not going to be a significant training stimulus or heavy enough to reinforce good technique.
    Lower weight is required to learn form no matter the rep count. The initial weight may be light but will be built up over time. No difference between rep counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    For example, try squatting in good position and technique with just the bar... It's hard as hell to keep a good position, at least for me, because the weight is almost too light to allow proper depth/position.
    Once again, the rep count has little to with this. You should be able to find a weight that will allow you to practice form and achieve all reps. If you have trouble hitting depth, it's probably due to flexibility and form issues, not the lighter weight. Most people that squat well can do it with a broomstick or PVC pipe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighwood View Post
    Going lower reps, heavier weight, and more sets seems more practical than just throwing someone on a 20 rep set and hoping they don't falter half way through.
    A beginner (or anybody) has just as much chance of faultering in their final set of heavy weights. Danger is inherant to all progressive weight lifting.

    20 reppers aren't going to be everybody's cup of tea... they are tough! They take a certain ammount of intestinal fortitude and determination when things start to get heavy. If you prefer 3x5 (or whatever), then by all means go for it. But don't make it seem like 20 rep squats are useless or more dangerous than other rep/set counts. They have a long and successful history of turning skinny guys into very big guys.
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