The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
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    All I know is its working currently, when it stops working I will reassess and re-plan.

    I guarantee you there is a lot of water...but there is some fat loss as well.

    I am recovering better than I was in the past.

    Its only 2 weeks. We will give it some time.

    All I know is I am starting to look better and feel better than I ever have
    Last edited by endpoint; 10-22-2010 at 08:49 PM.

  2. #27
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    Lots good advise on this thread. I agree, that from the beginning things didnt' really add up. I didn't see a lot of time frames given in your examples, and posts. You want to make sure and give a certain diet a 2-3 month period. (monitor it weekly) but give it a good amount of time. For example if you were eating 2700 for an extended period of time, you would lose weight for sure. I didn't get a picture of how long you had tried these various things. Also, the bottom line is amount of calories, it doesn't matter if they are carbs, or fat or what. Calories > maintenance = gain weight, calories < maintenance = lose weight.
    -Russ

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by russds View Post
    Lots good advise on this thread. I agree, that from the beginning things didnt' really add up. I didn't see a lot of time frames given in your examples, and posts. You want to make sure and give a certain diet a 2-3 month period. (monitor it weekly) but give it a good amount of time. For example if you were eating 2700 for an extended period of time, you would lose weight for sure. I didn't get a picture of how long you had tried these various things. Also, the bottom line is amount of calories, it doesn't matter if they are carbs, or fat or what. Calories > maintenance = gain weight, calories < maintenance = lose weight.
    -Russ
    2700 was for about 5 months with some days a bit higher (but not much)

  4. #29
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    All calories are not equal...yes the weight may come off regardless as long as he is in a deficit. But how much of the weight lost is muscle vs fat will be different depending on the macros. A lot has been written on this subject. One reason being the thermic effect of protein and there are many others.

    As far as it not being optimal recovery...I should have stated my comment better. If he is making progress at the same rate as before (with more carbs) then obviously he is doing fine. Thats what it really comes down to....and if that is that case and he is losing fat AND maintaining muscle he is doing well
    My Log: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=132038

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  5. #30
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehopkins932 View Post
    All calories are not equal...yes the weight may come off regardless as long as he is in a deficit. But how much of the weight lost is muscle vs fat will be different depending on the macros. A lot has been written on this subject. One reason being the thermic effect of protein and there are many others.

    As far as it not being optimal recovery...I should have stated my comment better. If he is making progress at the same rate as before (with more carbs) then obviously he is doing fine. Thats what it really comes down to....and if that is that case and he is losing fat AND maintaining muscle he is doing well
    In terms of what a kcal actually is, a kcal really is a kcal..

    Also, the thermic effect of food (TEF) is simply part of the equation of energy in vs. energy out. It still is thermodynamic energy equilibrium in the end. How much weight lost being fat vs. muscle is more dependent on genetics, a proper stimulus(such as tension), how lean the person already is, and adequate protein. Of course, there's more to this. Leptin levels have shown a lot of the cause for fat loss. But it's still the basic concept.

    If you want to be technical, with a standard diet, extra carbohydrates would actually protect muscle mass and performance.

    But in the end, you can't tell me more carbohydrates are going to make someone not retain muscle. That's sort of what it feels like you were saying indirectly with what I bolded (in relation to what was said). As long as someone consumes enough protein and is in a caloric deficit, they will lose fat. There is simply no way around this.

    Those low carb fanatics are simply misinformed of the biology of the human body. Low carbs don't magically zap body fat away. Being in a caloric deficit does.

    Now I will say carbohydrates can be used for certain purposes..such as metabolic depletion of glycogen and what not. And also, someone might lower carbohydrates because they don't want to reduce protein and fat because of hormones and amino acids.

    But most people totting these carb diets are using it as a magic pill. And I sort of feel like that is what's happening here. I mean, he hasn't changed his kcals at all but now is magically losing weight because of the evil carbs? That points more in the direction of glycogen depletion a.k.a water loss.

    OP - I found an article for you. It talks about glycogen depletion as weight loss and how you might go about lowering kcals in the form of carbohydrates and use refeeds to protect muscle. You'll notice the lower carb days are nothing drastic either.

    http://healing.about.com/cs/uc_direc...osscoach_2.htm
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  6. #31
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    for me, moderate carbs are ideal for dieting.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    In terms of what a kcal actually is, a kcal really is a kcal..

    Also, the thermic effect of food (TEF) is simply part of the equation of energy in vs. energy out. It still is thermodynamic energy equilibrium in the end. How much weight lost being fat vs. muscle is more dependent on genetics, a proper stimulus(such as tension), how lean the person already is, and adequate protein. Of course, there's more to this. Leptin levels have shown a lot of the cause for fat loss. But it's still the basic concept.

    If you want to be technical, with a standard diet, extra carbohydrates would actually protect muscle mass and performance.

    But in the end, you can't tell me more carbohydrates are going to make someone not retain muscle. That's sort of what it feels like you were saying indirectly with what I bolded (in relation to what was said). As long as someone consumes enough protein and is in a caloric deficit, they will lose fat. There is simply no way around this.

    Those low carb fanatics are simply misinformed of the biology of the human body. Low carbs don't magically zap body fat away. Being in a caloric deficit does.

    Now I will say carbohydrates can be used for certain purposes..such as metabolic depletion of glycogen and what not. And also, someone might lower carbohydrates because they don't want to reduce protein and fat because of hormones and amino acids.

    But most people totting these carb diets are using it as a magic pill. And I sort of feel like that is what's happening here. I mean, he hasn't changed his kcals at all but now is magically losing weight because of the evil carbs? That points more in the direction of glycogen depletion a.k.a water loss.

    OP - I found an article for you. It talks about glycogen depletion as weight loss and how you might go about lowering kcals in the form of carbohydrates and use refeeds to protect muscle. You'll notice the lower carb days are nothing drastic either.

    http://healing.about.com/cs/uc_direc...osscoach_2.htm
    The insulin from carbs make it much harder to lose fat...there is a reason people lean out fast on keto diets or timed-carb diets and carb cycle to stay lean. Different people have different sensitivity to insulin.

    And yes, a lot of people find that they lose a lot of weight in a week and say no carbs is magic, and like you said, this is due to water depletion.

    Im not really going to argue this anymore because OP is losing fat and still has his strength going up and good energy levels.
    My Log: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=132038

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehopkins932 View Post
    The insulin from carbs make it much harder to lose fat...
    You're getting lost in the complexity of the biology.

    Do yourself a favor and take the time to fully understand the physics at work. Then you can attack the biology form a level of understanding that will greatly simplify it.

    The Fitness Industry is a 1 billion dollar industry.
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  9. #34
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    Fair enough, I dont feeling like arguing this issue anymore. Ill agree to disagree
    My Log: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=132038

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holto View Post
    You're getting lost in the complexity of the biology.
    That's the major issue it seems.

    Could you explain the digestion process, the biochemistry involved in digestion, and the relating/created hormones please? What happens to protein, fat, and carbohydrates? You seem to be attacking the digestion process without giving an intimate view of what actually takes place.

    Why wouldn't a low/moderate carbohydrate work in the long run? Would carbohydrate timing be more beneficial (Essentially, working for your carbs)?

  11. #36
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonic View Post
    That's the major issue it seems.

    Could you explain the digestion process, the biochemistry involved in digestion, and the relating/created hormones please? What happens to protein, fat, and carbohydrates? You seem to be attacking the digestion process without giving an intimate view of what actually takes place.

    Why wouldn't a low/moderate carbohydrate work in the long run? Would carbohydrate timing be more beneficial (Essentially, working for your carbs)?
    While we are on the subject of asking questions, I have one for you. Can you explain how someone could create body fat while on a deficit? Regardless of insulin and carbohydrates and hormones? I was under the impression that mass could not be created nor destroyed..only change forms.

    On that same note, can you tell me why a low carbohydrate would be special compared to a standard diet (provided enough protein and fat) that was in a deficit? I.e how is insulin going to contribute to a body fat gain while in a deficit of kcals? That sounds to me like you are creating energy out of thin air and that violates thermodynamics.

    But seriously, do you really want us to whip out a biology book and go through the specific digestive process with you? We could talk about Ghrelin, CCK and PPY peptides that get secreted into the blood stream after a meal, etc.. but that all seems pretty trivial at this point. I think if you think about my questions above, you'll come to a better understanding of whats going on in the thread. And I'll be honest, if you want to know basic biology 101, you can simply use google or take a basic nutrition class that provides you with a text book O.o
    Last edited by RichMcGuire; 10-25-2010 at 07:35 PM.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  12. #37
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    I dont much about these things, but here are some studies I found (well abstracts).
    They probably dont answer any questions, but may guide people on the path to research (i dont know if they are relevant or not)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12077732

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/662209

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/386065

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC442270/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12106620

  13. #38
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    I have a side question.
    My fat free mass was measured (about a year ago) as being somewhere between 220-230. I have put on more muscle since then.

    would that have anything to do with what we talk about?
    If we stripped all my fat off, I would weigh more than 70 lbs than RichMcGuire.

    Is that going to affect how we process things?

  14. #39
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    I know the digestion process, and I agree about being in a calorie deficit.

    However, the OP stated that he has been on 2700 calorie and not lost/gained. While, also being on a 4000 calorie, and not seeing any changes (while still having a gut). As was mentioned, something isn't adding up, or there might be a medical condition.

    If 4000 is his maintenance, then 2700/day regardless of the body entering "starvation mode" he should have seen some form of weight loss. And, if 2700/day is his true maintenance then at 4000/day he should definitely see weight gain. Granted, this assumes all measurements be via scale, and not to include tape and/or body fat measurements.

  15. #40
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    Someone said not to get caught up in insulin or glycemic load stuff until you're under 10% body fat... they couldn't be more correct. Simpler is ALWAYS better.

    Have carbs ONLY after a workout or first thing in the morning.

    You need more protein. At least another whole meal's worth of protein. Shoot for at least 290g.

    Don't eat until you're full. If you're not happy with where you're at (i.e. feeling sluggish, looking fat), change the amount of food you eat accordingly. I have to say that I eat more than 4000 calories a day and I weigh 100 pounds less than you and I'm not gaining weight. Don't be afraid to eat a little more if necessary.

    As a [huge] powerlifter, strength is your number one concern I'm assuming. If you want to drop to the 275# class, I would suggest doing it immediately after a meet, making sure you've maintained your new weight for a few weeks before dialing in your training for your next meet.

    On that note, post-meet would be a perfect time for switching up your training at this time (i.e. higher reps). Give your joints a little rest and dial in the fat loss.

    Lastly, you may be getting body composition changes, but just not realizing it. Pictures are a great way to track progress like this so that you can have an honest opinion. A sex buddy may also be able to tell. Even some of your friends or family may be able to tell.
    Last edited by LanceGoyke; 10-26-2010 at 01:28 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    I can't really give you any expert advice on dieting but there a couple of articles you might find interesting on the main site about powerlifters losing fat:

    http://www.wannabebig.com/interviews...ncent-dizenzo/
    http://www.wannabebig.com/training/m...s-bench-press/

    You sound a bit discouraged and maybe these interviews will show you it's possible and make things seem a bit more positive.
    Was going to post the Vincent article, but figured I'd check to see the ones already linked. They're good reads, and are aimed at low carb/carb timing. Essentially, if you're going to take in carbs -- make the Insulin count, and do its job.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by endpoint View Post
    I have a side question.
    My fat free mass was measured (about a year ago) as being somewhere between 220-230. I have put on more muscle since then.

    would that have anything to do with what we talk about?
    If we stripped all my fat off, I would weigh more than 70 lbs than RichMcGuire.

    Is that going to affect how we process things?
    Being over 200 lbs at an extremely low bf% for someone not extremely tall is usually, if not impossible for someone not on anabolics. People who think they are are just fatter than they realize. But this thread has already taken its toll. Posts have already been removed from this thread.
    Last edited by RichMcGuire; 11-06-2010 at 11:25 PM.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Being over 200 lbs at an extremely low bf% for someone not extremely tall is usually, if not impossible for someone not on anabolics. People who think they are are just fatter than they realize. But this thread has already taken its toll. Posts have already been removed from this thread.
    I feel sad you have put a limit on yourself and you have doomed yourself to being small

  19. #44
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    Oh and for anyone else who cares, I am up to 4500 and still losing weight and getting stronger.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Being over 200 lbs at an extremely low bf% for someone not extremely tall is usually, if not impossible for someone not on anabolics. People who think they are are just fatter than they realize. But this thread has already taken its toll. Posts have already been removed from this thread.
    PS I was measured with a dexa scan two days ago. 235lbs of fat free mass.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by endpoint View Post
    PS I was measured with a dexa scan two days ago. 235lbs of fat free mass.
    What was your bodyfat %? I think his point was that it's tough to have that much lean body mass and be very lean in a natural trainee.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonic View Post
    That's the major issue it seems.

    Could you explain the digestion process, the biochemistry involved in digestion, and the relating/created hormones please? What happens to protein, fat, and carbohydrates?
    Ask me a specific question and I'd be happy to answer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by simonic View Post
    Why wouldn't a low/moderate carbohydrate work in the long run?
    Because it has no impact on the laws of physics.

    I'll explain myself a little bit here.

    You eat a meal that creates a high insulin response. Nutrients are shuttled into cells (fat and muscle)

    Now what?

    Your blood sugar is low yet it still requires energy. How does your body counteract this? One way is to mobilize fat.

    So if you follow the process a little further than "insulin makes us fat" you'll see that in application it just doesn't work that way.

    The Fitness Industry is a 1 billion dollar industry.
    --Dairy Queens Blizzard pulls in 3/4 of a billion.
    --------------We are the elite.------------

  23. #48
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endpoint View Post
    I feel sad you have put a limit on yourself and you have doomed yourself to being small
    Sean summed up what I meant very well.

    But to address this quote specifically, I'm at a pretty happy size now for my height. I also like to set realistic expectations on what can be achieved. In less than a year from now, I'd like to enter a bodybuilding contest I've been looking at recently. Hormones are a pretty big limiting factor when it comes to just how much LBM someone can really hold and/or retain. Anabolics sort of 'break natures rules'.

    So unless you're like 8 ft tall, you're certainly not going to be a ripped 240+ lb bodybuilder without drugs...unless you kid yourself with how fat you actually are.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  24. #49
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endpoint View Post
    I feel sad you have put a limit on yourself and you have doomed yourself to being small
    Also, I was going to add to this.

    The Mr. Olympia Winners


    Dexter Jackson 2008 (Current) 5′6.5″ 230 lb.
    Jay Cutler 2006,2007 5′9″ 255 lb.
    Ronnie Coleman 1998-2005 5′10″ 270 lb.
    Dorian Yates 1992-1997 5′10″ 255 lb.
    Lee Haney 1984-1991 5′11″ 235 lb.
    Samir Bannout 1983 5′8″ 210 lb.
    Chris Dickerson 1982 5′6″ 190 lb.
    Franco Colombu 1976, 1981 5′4″ 185 lb.
    Arnold 1970-1975, 1980 6′1″ 230 lb.
    Frank Zane 1977-1979 5′9″ 185 lb.
    Sergio Oliva 1967-1969 5′8″ 225 lb.
    Larry Scott 1965-1966 5′7″ 205 lb

    This chart comes from http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...an-aragon.html

    Take a look at those numbers. Many of these steroid users with around 3-6% BF had 200 lbs or less of BODY weight.

    You should also look into what the FFMI is. A guy at around 6'2 with 10% bodyfat with a FFMI of 25.5 would weigh 220 lbs. It's doubtful you'll be getting above a 25.5 index without drugs. It just simply will not happen. Also, you should look up Casey Butt.

    Actually, I'll just make this easier for you since you seem to be so stubborn. Just click this link:

    http://www.weightrainer.net/potential.html

    The predictions are very accurate and work. Sorry to put a limit on what you can gain, but it's just the reality of things. Being too optimistic is just ignorant of the actual science.

    I'll save my objections to your DEXA for another night.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Sean summed up what I meant very well.

    But to address this quote specifically, I'm at a pretty happy size now for my height. I also like to set realistic expectations on what can be achieved. In less than a year from now, I'd like to enter a bodybuilding contest I've been looking at recently. Hormones are a pretty big limiting factor when it comes to just how much LBM someone can really hold and/or retain. Anabolics sort of 'break natures rules'.

    So unless you're like 8 ft tall, you're certainly not going to be a ripped 240+ lb bodybuilder without drugs...unless you kid yourself with how fat you actually are.
    Oh I am fat dont worry about that, I am under no illusion.
    I train to look and lift like a man.
    Being happy and small means **** to me.

    I agree about the anabolics, but I still think there is something to lifting heavy and not being a homo

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