Doing 5/3/1 right now but I also read a lot about DC training because I think it will be something I try at some point. Dante talks about how 1 high intensity RP set is all you need to break the muscle down adequately. Right now I do the boring but big accessory for 5/3/1 but some times it just takes forever to get through because I combine my BBB push days with a BBB pull movement as well. I was thinking of choosing an intermediate weight...like a 10RM for instance and just doing a couple of rest paused clusters after I hit it. Do you think this would be the same as doing a 5x10 for my accessory? I know at the end of my 5x10, it feels like I did a rest-paused set anyway which is why I sparked the thread. The first 3 or 4 sets of the BBB feel kind of like a waste of time though. Thats why I always pick a weight where I just about fail on the 10th rep on the 5th set. Another option would be to rest pause after the 5th set and really finish it off. What do you think? I am making nice strength gains on 5/3/1 but sometimes I hardly feel like I worked out.
Realized I kind of rambled. The intent of this thread is to see if I would see the same muscle damage from 1 rest paused set with a 10RM vs sitting in the gym for 1.5 hours doing a 5x10 on two separate movements (bench and rows for instance).
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 02:51 PM.
The age old 1 Set vs. Multiple Sets debate...
My personal opinion is that they both work great, choose the one you enjoy. But, I also think anything past three sets is kind of a waste and verges on endurance work. You should be able to get the work done in two or three work sets.
Lets expand this further...what do you think about a 20 rep squat set with your 15RM in place of a 5x10? I am axing leg press and was going to try this instead.
Here is Jim's Faq..
39. DC (Rest Pause) Training for assistance work
- Not a bad idea.
Not very in depth but its not like hes 100% disagreeing with it. I think I will give it a try next cycle. Don't want to mess with my current cycle since I am starting week 3 today.
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 03:11 PM.
I think everybody knows that I really like 20 rep squats, especially when they follow a tough low rep set. When I used them along with my 5/3/1 workouts, I'd do them after the 1's workout. I'd usually get 5 or 6 reps on the 1's week, then I'd drop the weight to about 80% and bang out a set of 20s. Since this was followed by a deload week, it never interfered with recovery. Doing them every week after your 5/3/1 squats might prove to be too much for recovery, but everyone is different in what they can handle.
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 03:21 PM.
I know what you mean...I see some of those guys doing 5x10 lunges or split squats and I'm like "holy crap" that's a lot of work. Good for them for being able to do that.
2) I have done the BBB for about a year and got alot out of it. I have recently switched to one RP set after the 531. I would not call it DC training, because that would be wrong. Its just rest-pause training.
3) I REALLY am enjoying the one RP set (I'll do more if I have the energy) for accessory on 531. But this could be because its a nice change of pace. Time will tell if it is working for me or not...
Hope this helps!
IMO they are two completely different stimuli. Its almost like comparing max effort work and repetition work.
You can make great progress with EITHER method, and some people will do better with one or the other. But you can also work them both into your programming.
I personally do better with the lower volume forced rep method, but still try to work in the volume approach from time to time, I just dont keep it in there as often.
The the thread starter, give me an example of a training day for you. All sets to include warm-ups.
Military press 5/3/1
5x10 Military at 50-60%
Weighted Chins 5/3/1
5x10 Weighted Chins at bodyweight
Good Mornings 5x10, light
Decline Abs up to a heavy set of 5
Light Decline Abs 5x10
Bench 5x10 at 50-60%
Pendlay Rows 5/3/1
Pendlay Rows 5x10 at 50-60%
Leg Press 5x10
Standing ab crunches up to one heavy set
Seated Machine Crunches 5x10
So as you can see, I pair push with pull for upper. And abs and legs for lower. Been making really good gains so far on all my lifts, but I am really bored of the 5x10, specifically, for upper body. The deadlift day won't change because the light good mornings have taken care of any back pain I used to have. I want to change my press and bench days and maybe the squat day.
Today I did try rest pause with my military and pullups..
After my 5/3/1 sets, I did 135x10+3+2 on military. Then I did BWx15+5+4 on pullups. It shaved like 40 minutes off my workout.
Why exactly are you doing a 5/3/1 scheme for two exercises on upper body days? No wonder it's taking so long if you are also doing 5x10 with your assistance work. If you do the 5x10 stuff I would recommend doing the program as written and not do 5/3/1 for two movements per workout. If you insist on doing 5/3/1 for two movements, then doing 5x10 for assistance is probably overkill. 2-3 sets of 10 is likely all that is necessary in that scenario.
To answer your original question: Is one rest-pause set the same as doing 5x10? No. Can the rest-pause for assistance work be effective? Yes. Which one is better? It depends on way too many factors to make a blanket answer.
Here is his faq:
Q:How to increase your pulling (back) volume?
Wendler: Do one set of pulling between EVERY PUSHING MOVEMENT - even the warmups and work sets. I do 50 chin ups before I even touch a barbell in the weight room. And then sets of 10 between every set that I do, including all warm ups and works sets
Another quote from question 28
" I assume most of you are doing chins and pull-ups between all your pressing sets. Be sure to continue to do this with these extra pressing sets to keep everything in balance. "
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 09:13 PM.
A very nutshell version:
Adding rest-pause to what you are doing is recipe for further overtraining disaster.
The fact that you are doing all of that volume with the same exercises repeated week after week is why you are not progressing.
I don't like the 5-3-1, but if you are stuck on it then do it followed by 1 rest-pause set (as described in DC training) after your 5-3-1 movement for the day. DROP the 5 x 10 crap.
Trust me. I know what I am talking about.
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-30-2010 at 07:24 AM.
If you do rest-pause for your accessory work that is typically all you do for that lift. I think Jason Adams at EliteFTS did that for a awhile and seemed to really enjoy it.
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Now it sounds like you are morphing it into a DC routine, which is fine if you want to do DC. Otherwise, I'd just have faith in the 5/3/1 since you've been doing good with it. When you stop doing good, then switch things up. I know that's not very "westside" of me
As I see it, you would pick a few accessory lifts, work them hard until they start to stall out, then switch them for others. As long as your main lifts continue to rise, all is good. If 5x10 is too boring or takes too long, switch it to 3x8 or something a little different but still has the sets accross. But that's just my interpretation of the program...
You can get some ideas from here:
You can try different things. It doesn't have to be the same thing from week to week, as long as the weights move up in the long run.
After trying it yesterday, I feel no different today than if I had done the 5x10's instead. I think with the deload every 4th week, it could work...and if I start to burn out, then I will just revert back to normal rep/set scheme.
Believe me, I am sticking with 5/3/1 for a while...the gains have been amazing and I blew right past my bench plateau. I am just tired of sitting in the gym for almost 2 hours. DC training is something I would like to try in the future when my lifts are a bit higher and the gains on 5/3/1 have stalled.
*Another option would be just to lower the weights WAY down on the 5x10 and hit them with a 1 minute rest instead...then for pullups I can do a 5x5 at 1 minute, since id never get 50 reps in 5 minutes. Anything to lower the time I am in the gym!
Last edited by mchicia1; 11-30-2010 at 08:55 AM.
For Chris Mason, could you elaborate on your thoughts on 5/3/1. Wha about it don't you like?
For the op, you could still be getting gains off a 5x5. You went to 5/3/1 too early. Take your current 5 rep maxes decrease those to 90% or so, and plug them in the 5x5 calculator. That will give you several months to progress, work on the lifts, and blow past where you are at now. Take a few steps back. You were the same one before asking about not deloading, right? Means you don't need month to month progression, you can still handle week to week.
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As for the 5x5, I did make good gains with Madcow-intermediate, but to be honest, I think I have been making even better gains with 5/3/1. I like the slow pace because it keeps me fresh and injury free.