Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: Is a 5x10 the same as one all out rest-paused set?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071

    Is a 5x10 the same as one all out rest-paused set?

    Doing 5/3/1 right now but I also read a lot about DC training because I think it will be something I try at some point. Dante talks about how 1 high intensity RP set is all you need to break the muscle down adequately. Right now I do the boring but big accessory for 5/3/1 but some times it just takes forever to get through because I combine my BBB push days with a BBB pull movement as well. I was thinking of choosing an intermediate weight...like a 10RM for instance and just doing a couple of rest paused clusters after I hit it. Do you think this would be the same as doing a 5x10 for my accessory? I know at the end of my 5x10, it feels like I did a rest-paused set anyway which is why I sparked the thread. The first 3 or 4 sets of the BBB feel kind of like a waste of time though. Thats why I always pick a weight where I just about fail on the 10th rep on the 5th set. Another option would be to rest pause after the 5th set and really finish it off. What do you think? I am making nice strength gains on 5/3/1 but sometimes I hardly feel like I worked out.

    **Edit**

    Realized I kind of rambled. The intent of this thread is to see if I would see the same muscle damage from 1 rest paused set with a 10RM vs sitting in the gym for 1.5 hours doing a 5x10 on two separate movements (bench and rows for instance).
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,884
    The age old 1 Set vs. Multiple Sets debate...

    My personal opinion is that they both work great, choose the one you enjoy. But, I also think anything past three sets is kind of a waste and verges on endurance work. You should be able to get the work done in two or three work sets.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    The age old 1 Set vs. Multiple Sets debate...

    My personal opinion is that they both work great, choose the one you enjoy. But, I also think anything past three sets is kind of a waste and verges on endurance work. You should be able to get the work done in two or three work sets.
    Thats what I was thinking....I love the 5/3/1 progression but the BBB template is getting, well, very boring and my workouts are just lasting too damn long lately. I like it for my lower back work and ab work because I am after more endurance in those areas...but I hate it for upper body.

    Lets expand this further...what do you think about a 20 rep squat set with your 15RM in place of a 5x10? I am axing leg press and was going to try this instead.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Here is Jim's Faq..

    http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-...qid=123083&tid

    39. DC (Rest Pause) Training for assistance work
    - Not a bad idea.

    Not very in depth but its not like hes 100% disagreeing with it. I think I will give it a try next cycle. Don't want to mess with my current cycle since I am starting week 3 today.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 03:11 PM.

  5. #5
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,884
    I think everybody knows that I really like 20 rep squats, especially when they follow a tough low rep set. When I used them along with my 5/3/1 workouts, I'd do them after the 1's workout. I'd usually get 5 or 6 reps on the 1's week, then I'd drop the weight to about 80% and bang out a set of 20s. Since this was followed by a deload week, it never interfered with recovery. Doing them every week after your 5/3/1 squats might prove to be too much for recovery, but everyone is different in what they can handle.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    I think everybody knows that I really like 20 rep squats, especially when they follow a tough low rep set. When I used them along with my 5/3/1 workouts, I'd do them after the 1's workout. I'd usually get 5 or 6 reps on the 1's week, then I'd drop the weight to about 80% and bang out a set of 20s. Since this was followed by a deload week, it never interfered with recovery. Doing them every week after your 5/3/1 squats might prove to be too much for recovery, but everyone is different in what they can handle.
    Maybe I will try the rest paused technique on squats instead...or maybe do lunges like I posted in my journal but there is no way in HELL I am doing a 5x10 with lunges! Maybe I will go heavy on them and do a 3x6 or 3x8 or something.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 03:21 PM.

  7. #7
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,884
    I know what you mean...I see some of those guys doing 5x10 lunges or split squats and I'm like "holy crap" that's a lot of work. Good for them for being able to do that.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  8. #8
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    Maybe I will try the rest paused technique on squats instead...or maybe do lunges like I posted in my journal but there is no way in HELL I am doing a 5x10 with lunges! Maybe I will go heavy on them and do a 3x6 or 3x8 or something.
    1) I would not do rest pause with squats. Dante does not recommend it. I think its asking for trouble.

    2) I have done the BBB for about a year and got alot out of it. I have recently switched to one RP set after the 531. I would not call it DC training, because that would be wrong. Its just rest-pause training.
    3) I REALLY am enjoying the one RP set (I'll do more if I have the energy) for accessory on 531. But this could be because its a nice change of pace. Time will tell if it is working for me or not...

    Hope this helps!

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    490
    IMO they are two completely different stimuli. Its almost like comparing max effort work and repetition work.

    You can make great progress with EITHER method, and some people will do better with one or the other. But you can also work them both into your programming.


    I personally do better with the lower volume forced rep method, but still try to work in the volume approach from time to time, I just dont keep it in there as often.

  10. #10
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    12,706
    The the thread starter, give me an example of a training day for you. All sets to include warm-ups.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    The the thread starter, give me an example of a training day for you. All sets to include warm-ups.
    Ill list my entire routine...

    Monday:
    Military press 5/3/1
    5x10 Military at 50-60%
    Weighted Chins 5/3/1
    5x10 Weighted Chins at bodyweight

    Tuesday:
    Deads 5/3/1
    Good Mornings 5x10, light
    Decline Abs up to a heavy set of 5
    Light Decline Abs 5x10

    Thursday:
    Bench 5/3/1
    Bench 5x10 at 50-60%
    Pendlay Rows 5/3/1
    Pendlay Rows 5x10 at 50-60%

    Friday:
    Squat 5/3/1
    Leg Press 5x10
    Standing ab crunches up to one heavy set
    Seated Machine Crunches 5x10

    So as you can see, I pair push with pull for upper. And abs and legs for lower. Been making really good gains so far on all my lifts, but I am really bored of the 5x10, specifically, for upper body. The deadlift day won't change because the light good mornings have taken care of any back pain I used to have. I want to change my press and bench days and maybe the squat day.

    Today I did try rest pause with my military and pullups..

    After my 5/3/1 sets, I did 135x10+3+2 on military. Then I did BWx15+5+4 on pullups. It shaved like 40 minutes off my workout.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,099
    Why exactly are you doing a 5/3/1 scheme for two exercises on upper body days? No wonder it's taking so long if you are also doing 5x10 with your assistance work. If you do the 5x10 stuff I would recommend doing the program as written and not do 5/3/1 for two movements per workout. If you insist on doing 5/3/1 for two movements, then doing 5x10 for assistance is probably overkill. 2-3 sets of 10 is likely all that is necessary in that scenario.
    To answer your original question: Is one rest-pause set the same as doing 5x10? No. Can the rest-pause for assistance work be effective? Yes. Which one is better? It depends on way too many factors to make a blanket answer.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    Why exactly are you doing a 5/3/1 scheme for two exercises on upper body days? No wonder it's taking so long if you are also doing 5x10 with your assistance work. If you do the 5x10 stuff I would recommend doing the program as written and not do 5/3/1 for two movements per workout. If you insist on doing 5/3/1 for two movements, then doing 5x10 for assistance is probably overkill. 2-3 sets of 10 is likely all that is necessary in that scenario.
    To answer your original question: Is one rest-pause set the same as doing 5x10? No. Can the rest-pause for assistance work be effective? Yes. Which one is better? It depends on way too many factors to make a blanket answer.
    Because of stalled progress on those two movements. Jim himself recommended it....
    He also strictly recommends matching pulling reps with pushing reps.

    Also the 5/3/1 only takes maybe 5 minutes to reach the top set.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 09:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Here is his faq:

    http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-...=123083&tid=63

    Q:How to increase your pulling (back) volume?

    Wendler: Do one set of pulling between EVERY PUSHING MOVEMENT - even the warmups and work sets. I do 50 chin ups before I even touch a barbell in the weight room. And then sets of 10 between every set that I do, including all warm ups and works sets

    Another quote from question 28

    " I assume most of you are doing chins and pull-ups between all your pressing sets. Be sure to continue to do this with these extra pressing sets to keep everything in balance. "
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-29-2010 at 09:13 PM.

  15. #15
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    12,706
    A very nutshell version:

    Adding rest-pause to what you are doing is recipe for further overtraining disaster.

    The fact that you are doing all of that volume with the same exercises repeated week after week is why you are not progressing.

    I don't like the 5-3-1, but if you are stuck on it then do it followed by 1 rest-pause set (as described in DC training) after your 5-3-1 movement for the day. DROP the 5 x 10 crap.

    Trust me. I know what I am talking about.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    A very nutshell version:

    Adding rest-pause to what you are doing is recipe for further overtraining disaster.

    The fact that you are doing all of that volume with the same exercises repeated week after week is why you are not progressing.

    I don't like the 5-3-1, but if you are stuck on it then do it followed by 1 rest-pause set (as described in DC training) after your 5-3-1 movement for the day. DROP the 5 x 10 crap.

    Trust me. I know what I am talking about.
    When did I say I wasn't progressing? I have been setting PR's every week...my bench has gone up 30 pounds since I started 3 months ago...my deadlift is up around 60, press up 20, and squat is up 30. The reason for the thread was to discuss possible new accessories. I am just bored of the 5x10 so I wanted to replace it with something else...the 5/3/1 will remain though. If anything, the 5x10 is too easy week to week and I recover very easily.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-30-2010 at 07:24 AM.

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    I don't like the 5-3-1, but if you are stuck on it then do it followed by 1 rest-pause set (as described in DC training) after your 5-3-1 movement for the day. DROP the 5 x 10 crap.
    This is what I was proposing and what I did try on military press and pullups yesterday. Should I stop it there or mix in one more accessory with a normal rep/set scheme like a 2x10 or 3x8?

  18. #18
    Garage Lifter
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    5,993
    If you do rest-pause for your accessory work that is typically all you do for that lift. I think Jason Adams at EliteFTS did that for a awhile and seemed to really enjoy it.
    "Its not the will to win that matters, everyone has that. Its the will to prepare to win that matters." Bear Bryant
    My blog: http://mattsdailyjournal.wordpress.com/
    My Journal: http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...88#post2271988

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by StLRPh View Post
    If you do rest-pause for your accessory work that is typically all you do for that lift. I think Jason Adams at EliteFTS did that for a awhile and seemed to really enjoy it.
    Yeah ive been trying to dig through article after article to see what is considered "too much". Seems like the general consensus is that one 8rm or 10RM followed by 2 clusters is right on the cusp. So I will stop it there...should be fun having to only workout less than an hour. Now I am wondering if I should pick 3 exercises to rotate through the cycle or just stick with the same movement.

  20. #20
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,884
    Now it sounds like you are morphing it into a DC routine, which is fine if you want to do DC. Otherwise, I'd just have faith in the 5/3/1 since you've been doing good with it. When you stop doing good, then switch things up. I know that's not very "westside" of me

    As I see it, you would pick a few accessory lifts, work them hard until they start to stall out, then switch them for others. As long as your main lifts continue to rise, all is good. If 5x10 is too boring or takes too long, switch it to 3x8 or something a little different but still has the sets accross. But that's just my interpretation of the program...
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    490
    You can get some ideas from here:

    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/repetition_work.htm


    You can try different things. It doesn't have to be the same thing from week to week, as long as the weights move up in the long run.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Now it sounds like you are morphing it into a DC routine, which is fine if you want to do DC. Otherwise, I'd just have faith in the 5/3/1 since you've been doing good with it. When you stop doing good, then switch things up. I know that's not very "westside" of me

    As I see it, you would pick a few accessory lifts, work them hard until they start to stall out, then switch them for others. As long as your main lifts continue to rise, all is good. If 5x10 is too boring or takes too long, switch it to 3x8 or something a little different but still has the sets accross. But that's just my interpretation of the program...
    Well, DC training itself uses *intense* weight and you only perform 1 clustered set per exercise. What I was thinking was picking what my 10RM would be after already doing my 5/3/1 sets then just adding 2 clusters to it. The intensity should be way lower because its not a true 10RM as if I were fresh. For instance, 135 on military is not my true 10RM...I could probably hit that for 14 or 15 if I were fresh but that was my 10RM yesterday after my top 5/3/1 set.

    After trying it yesterday, I feel no different today than if I had done the 5x10's instead. I think with the deload every 4th week, it could work...and if I start to burn out, then I will just revert back to normal rep/set scheme.

    Believe me, I am sticking with 5/3/1 for a while...the gains have been amazing and I blew right past my bench plateau. I am just tired of sitting in the gym for almost 2 hours. DC training is something I would like to try in the future when my lifts are a bit higher and the gains on 5/3/1 have stalled.

    *Another option would be just to lower the weights WAY down on the 5x10 and hit them with a 1 minute rest instead...then for pullups I can do a 5x5 at 1 minute, since id never get 50 reps in 5 minutes. Anything to lower the time I am in the gym!
    Last edited by mchicia1; 11-30-2010 at 08:55 AM.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by danki View Post
    You can get some ideas from here:

    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/repetition_work.htm


    You can try different things. It doesn't have to be the same thing from week to week, as long as the weights move up in the long run.
    Thanks for the link!

  24. #24
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Palmyra, PA
    Posts
    5,730
    For Chris Mason, could you elaborate on your thoughts on 5/3/1. Wha about it don't you like?

    For the op, you could still be getting gains off a 5x5. You went to 5/3/1 too early. Take your current 5 rep maxes decrease those to 90% or so, and plug them in the 5x5 calculator. That will give you several months to progress, work on the lifts, and blow past where you are at now. Take a few steps back. You were the same one before asking about not deloading, right? Means you don't need month to month progression, you can still handle week to week.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

    Just get under the bar!

  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    For Chris Mason, could you elaborate on your thoughts on 5/3/1. Wha about it don't you like?

    For the op, you could still be getting gains off a 5x5. You went to 5/3/1 too early. Take your current 5 rep maxes decrease those to 90% or so, and plug them in the 5x5 calculator. That will give you several months to progress, work on the lifts, and blow past where you are at now. Take a few steps back. You were the same one before asking about not deloading, right? Means you don't need month to month progression, you can still handle week to week.
    Yes, I asked about the deloading because I never felt like I needed it. The solution for that was to still deload, but go higher on the percentages (like 70 instead of 50).

    As for the 5x5, I did make good gains with Madcow-intermediate, but to be honest, I think I have been making even better gains with 5/3/1. I like the slow pace because it keeps me fresh and injury free.

Similar Threads

  1. A quick question about rep, set & rest?
    By Deja in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-22-2010, 03:59 PM
  2. paused bench question
    By xolix in forum Powerlifting and Strength Training
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-04-2008, 12:26 AM
  3. New paused bench PR! 260x1
    By redFury in forum Members' Pics and Videos
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 06-20-2007, 10:45 AM
  4. New paused bench pr! 260x1
    By redFury in forum Members' Pics and Videos
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-11-2007, 10:17 PM
  5. how much rest time everyone doing between a set
    By kairar in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-15-2004, 07:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •