The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Its no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Steve Buccilli 1400total's Avatar
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    sorry if this question has been asked-knee wraps raw or not?

    I noticed on powerlifting watch that they put this disclaimer in for the raw the rankings

    NOTE(Raw Category): AAU ADAU APF IPA MSA PAP PRPA RAW RAWUnited USAPL USPA- Do not allow kneewraps.

    there are more feds that have raw catagories that do not allow knee wraps than there are feds that do, so should knee wraps be considered raw?

    personally i would say no. I have used knee wraps in training and in single ply/multiply but never raw. but i can understand the argument.
    when I see rob wilkerson squat over 900 without a suit I am impressed regadless of what is around his knees

    but when I see someone else ranked ahead of me by 10-20 lbs i sometimes think that its due to the wraps, and yes it does me motivation to say i can beat them without wraps. but......


    what do you guys think?

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  3. #2
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
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    To me they aren't, but what does it matter in the grand scheme of things? There are many lifts i watch that I don't even know what to call them. Apparently they are squats, but not to me. Again though, I could care less. Make your own determination of what is important to you with lifting and compete in that matter. We are doing this for fun at the end of the day anyway.
    Last edited by joey54; 12-15-2010 at 10:48 AM.


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  4. #3
    Senior Member kingkong51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1400total View Post
    I noticed on powerlifting watch that they put this disclaimer in for the raw the rankings

    NOTE(Raw Category): AAU ADAU APF IPA MSA PAP PRPA RAW RAWUnited USAPL USPA- Do not allow kneewraps.

    there are more feds that have raw catagories that do not allow knee wraps than there are feds that do, so should knee wraps be considered raw?

    personally i would say no. I have used knee wraps in training and in single ply/multiply but never raw. but i can understand the argument.
    when I see rob wilkerson squat over 900 without a suit I am impressed regadless of what is around his knees

    but when I see someone else ranked ahead of me by 10-20 lbs i sometimes think that its due to the wraps, and yes it does me motivation to say i can beat them without wraps. but......


    what do you guys think?
    I consider both raw but it depends on the federation. I rarely us knee wraps in training but I consider it still a raw squat because knee wraps give stability but do not assists with the entire lift like a squat suit.
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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong51 View Post
    I consider both raw but it depends on the federation. I rarely us knee wraps in training but I consider it still a raw squat because knee wraps give stability but do not assists with the entire lift like a squat suit.
    Don't knee wraps give you a stretch reflex out of the hole if you bounce out of it? I read about people seeing 50-60 pound increases with knee wraps just by slamming down in the hole and reflexing back out of it.

  6. #5
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    No knee wraps = Raw
    Knee Wraps = Raw*

  7. #6
    Senior Member IronDiggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    Don't knee wraps give you a stretch reflex out of the hole if you bounce out of it? I read about people seeing 50-60 pound increases with knee wraps just by slamming down in the hole and reflexing back out of it.
    Even going slow I get pop out of my wraps. More so than any knee sleeve I've used.

    I don't really consider them raw. But each to his own, there are people that consider belts not raw.
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  8. #7
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    Depends on the fed
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  9. #8
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    the word "raw" was coined for a lack of supportive equipment. Supportive meaning direct aid to 1RM capabilities. Belts are a touchy subject. Wrist wraps are more a stabilizer as the wrist flexes very little during a bench if done correctly (which is why you want to cast a wrist). But knee wraps are different. The wrap expands as the knee is flexed. At the deepest position in the hole, a lot of potential energy is stored in the wrap transferring to kinetic energy during the ascent.
    http://www.prowriststraps.com/knee_w...rlifting_squat

    It seems when looking at the Raw rankings on PWatch that there are alot of feds that allow knee wraps present in the Top 10 raw squat rankings across the weight classes. Allowing knee wraps seems to be a business decision to allow lifters a place and time to hit higher raw squats so these lifters flock to their feds. Same reason the SPF/USPF I believe offers single ply briefs in their single ply division.
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Butcher's Avatar
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    I don't feel they are raw, but I really don't care if the next guy thinks the same or not.

  11. #10
    Bad Attitude Gym AdamBAG's Avatar
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    I personally don't really care. I will note that some APF meets have what they call the "classic division" which allows knee wraps, wrist wraps, and belt only. They also have raw, which doesn't allow knee wraps. Kind of an interesting spin on things.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodandThunder View Post
    the word "raw" was coined for a lack of supportive equipment. Supportive meaning direct aid to 1RM capabilities. Belts are a touchy subject. Wrist wraps are more a stabilizer as the wrist flexes very little during a bench if done correctly (which is why you want to cast a wrist). But knee wraps are different. The wrap expands as the knee is flexed. At the deepest position in the hole, a lot of potential energy is stored in the wrap transferring to kinetic energy during the ascent.
    http://www.prowriststraps.com/knee_w...rlifting_squat

    It seems when looking at the Raw rankings on PWatch that there are alot of feds that allow knee wraps present in the Top 10 raw squat rankings across the weight classes. Allowing knee wraps seems to be a business decision to allow lifters a place and time to hit higher raw squats so these lifters flock to their feds. Same reason the SPF/USPF I believe offers single ply briefs in their single ply division.
    Good post.

    What is your feeling on belts? I really don't feel like it actually helps me lift THAT much more weight per se, but it definitely helps me get more reps out of a squat or deadlift. That could be mainly mental though, I am still unsure because I am still terrified of pulling 450+ with no belt.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    Good post.

    What is your feeling on belts? I really don't feel like it actually helps me lift THAT much more weight per se, but it definitely helps me get more reps out of a squat or deadlift. That could be mainly mental though, I am still unsure because I am still terrified of pulling 450+ with no belt.
    belts are touchy for one major reason. They've been around forever. Belts increase intra-abdominal pressure since your torso now has something to push against. Personally, I'd rather take a max squat with a belt than with knee wraps and no belt. But KK seems to be one of the only bigtime PLers, besides some SHWs with massive powerbellies, who don't wear one when they DL due to the poor starting position they may put you in. Squatting is different it seems, and the addition of a belt should lead to a higher 1RM. If you don't get much out of a belt, learn to use it correctly rather than just "wearing" it by pushing out actively against it.

    I could honestly care less. I'd personally get rid of the word "RAW" all together and replace it with unequipped. Some get up in arms about belts, some get up in arms about wrist wraps, or knee wraps. Hell, noone can pull as much with chalk in their hands if they didn't have chalk. So I guess the true "RAW" definition according to the zealots should be a loose singlet, no shoes (flat surfaces equal higher pulls), no belt, no wraps, and no chalk.

    But then again, I'd rather just not care and lift heavy weights lol
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  14. #13
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    Who gives a ****.

    Lift how you want to lift.

    If you dont like a guy out ranking you in wraps wear some wraps and get ahead of him.

    If thats not what you want to do then stop looking at the PL Watch list.

    I only care about PR's, I suggest you do the same LOL.
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  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodandThunder View Post
    belts are touchy for one major reason. They've been around forever. Belts increase intra-abdominal pressure since your torso now has something to push against. Personally, I'd rather take a max squat with a belt than with knee wraps and no belt. But KK seems to be one of the only bigtime PLers, besides some SHWs with massive powerbellies, who don't wear one when they DL due to the poor starting position they may put you in. Squatting is different it seems, and the addition of a belt should lead to a higher 1RM. If you don't get much out of a belt, learn to use it correctly rather than just "wearing" it by pushing out actively against it.

    I could honestly care less. I'd personally get rid of the word "RAW" all together and replace it with unequipped. Some get up in arms about belts, some get up in arms about wrist wraps, or knee wraps. Hell, noone can pull as much with chalk in their hands if they didn't have chalk. So I guess the true "RAW" definition according to the zealots should be a loose singlet, no shoes (flat surfaces equal higher pulls), no belt, no wraps, and no chalk.

    But then again, I'd rather just not care and lift heavy weights lol
    Maybe the belt only helps your 1rm a lot if you truly have a weak lower back/abs? I am finally at the point where my legs give out before my back does on my working sets, so I am betting that the belt won't affect my 1rm that much anymore but then again I don't really breathe into it that much. Its probably more of a mental thing knowing that if my form ends up breaking down, I can still give 110% to get that last rep vs just giving up if I were unequipped.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScottYard View Post
    Who gives a ****.

    Lift how you want to lift.

    If you dont like a guy out ranking you in wraps wear some wraps and get ahead of him.

    If thats not what you want to do then stop looking at the PL Watch list.

    I only care about PR's, I suggest you do the same LOL.
    Agree 100%!

  16. #15
    Senior Member Ryan Celli's Avatar
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    This topic will actually be discussed in the next issue of PLUSA in the Forum section.

    In this sport you can't really compare lifts much anymore, unless your comparing them in the same meet. Judging is so varied anymore, and all the divisions are all different as far as equipment goes. To try and compare lifts just by weight class anymore is not a good comparison. And now the rankings are really mixed up because of the gear allowed and not allowed, not to mention the judging standards.

    Let's look at single ply for example.

    Tthe USPF, USAPL, IPF and lets say the APF are all considered "single ply". (Well the APF now offers a single ply division I should say).

    The USAPL and IPF do not allow briefs, only approve 2m wraps, require a walk out on the squat and have a 2 hour weigh in.

    The USPF allows legless briefs, allow 2.5 meter wraps, require a walk out on the squat and have a 24 hour weigh in.

    The APF allows legged briefs (I believe), 2.5m wraps, does not require the squat to be walked out as they use a monolift, and have a 24 hour weigh in.

    So, there you have single ply rankings with a wide variety of equipment and rules and of course weights lifted. They compare a IPF no brief, 2m wrap, walked out, 2 hour weigh in and below parallel squat to an APF legged brief, 2.5m wrap, not walked out, with maybe questionable depth and 24 hour weigh in. Fair? not really.

    Notice how I didn't even mention the whole drug tested part! LOL

    Not much we can do other than lift how we like to lift and lift more than everyone with the least amount of equipment!

    As far as the raw stuff, seems real silly to compare a squat with wraps not walked out to a squat walked out no wraps. But it's no more silly than the above single ply comparison.

    To answer your question 1400total, I don't consider knee wraps raw, I consider them classic lifting. Raw for me would be belt, wrist wraps. See PLUSA article for futher explanation.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by StLRPh View Post
    Depends on the fed
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  18. #17
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Squatting with knee wraps is only considered raw if you are not wearing a condom.


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  19. #18
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    If it bothers someone to see there numbers beat by 10-20 lbs. and wonder if the lifter used wraps, just do what I did to satsfies your curiousity. In 2008-09-10; I did meets every style. I did single ply, raw with wraps, multi-ply and raw without wraps. Now I have no room to bit**. I know where I ranked each way. And it was a heck of a lot of fun and challenging. If my comeback is a success, I plan to keep doing this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermonster View Post
    If it bothers someone to see there numbers beat by 10-20 lbs. and wonder if the lifter used wraps, just do what I did to satsfies your curiousity. In 2008-09-10; I did meets every style. I did single ply, raw with wraps, multi-ply and raw without wraps. Now I have no room to bit**. I know where I ranked each way. And it was a heck of a lot of fun and challenging. If my comeback is a success, I plan to keep doing this.
    Great post! Great idea!
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  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermonster View Post
    If it bothers someone to see there numbers beat by 10-20 lbs. and wonder if the lifter used wraps, just do what I did to satsfies your curiousity. In 2008-09-10; I did meets every style. I did single ply, raw with wraps, multi-ply and raw without wraps. Now I have no room to bit**. I know where I ranked each way. And it was a heck of a lot of fun and challenging. If my comeback is a success, I plan to keep doing this.
    Cool idea, god forbid someone steps out of their comfort zone in this sport and tries a new area of it.

    Would be a cool concept to have a tri-championship each year. Have RUM determine a raw champion, the same lifters do a single-ply unity meet, and maybe have one of the PRO-AMs do a multi-ply meet. Then crown an overall LW, MW, and HW champ. You throw a ton of money at this idea, and PLers would come irregardless of minute little rule differences (say some raw lifters having to throw away the wraps at RUM or single ply lifters using a closed back shirt or whatever).
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  22. #21
    Senior Member Ryan Celli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodandThunder View Post
    Cool idea, god forbid someone steps out of their comfort zone in this sport and tries a new area of it.

    Would be a cool concept to have a tri-championship each year. Have RUM determine a raw champion, the same lifters do a single-ply unity meet, and maybe have one of the PRO-AMs do a multi-ply meet. Then crown an overall LW, MW, and HW champ. You throw a ton of money at this idea, and PLers would come irregardless of minute little rule differences (say some raw lifters having to throw away the wraps at RUM or single ply lifters using a closed back shirt or whatever).
    This is something I have always said to do. And your right money would be key. I'm down for it. I do raw and single now. I've done multi ply in the past, but it's been about 6 years.

  23. #22
    Senior Member hulk242's Avatar
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    I consider belt only as raw and knee wraps are plus. I didn't wear wraps my first 2 meets and walked the weight out. In these meets wraps and the monolift were allowed. I was being ranked as if I wore wraps, so I went with the last 2. I would prefer all raw to be without wraps, as I get very little out of wraps the way I squat and walking out takes nothing off what I squat. However, I have no problem with wraps. Really, can we not tell who is who now? Not like a top guy with wraps is not right there regardless.....
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  24. #23
    Senior Member elilliebridge's Avatar
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    It doesn't really matter on anyone's opinion if it's considered "raw" or not, it's what the federation allows. If you choose to compete in a federation that allows wraps for raw, and you don't wear wraps and get beat, then you'd be stupid not to wear the wraps as well. Not only that, there are a lot of guys who can't squat that well with wraps on to begin with. There are also a TON of new wraps out there that much stronger than the older wraps. I have yet to try the newer APT wraps, because i'm happy with the same knee wraps i've used for the past 2 years. For the guys that love to compete without the knee wraps and love to go heavy, well i'd love to see them 10 years from now competing without the wraps and going just as heavy as they were, as i'm sure there knees won't last that long. As far as the "powerlifting watch rankings" go, they should be the one's to seperate the raw with wraps and the raw without wraps, just like they have for the old raw records that i've looked at before from years ago.

  25. #24
    Senior Member elilliebridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong51 View Post
    I consider both raw but it depends on the federation. I rarely us knee wraps in training but I consider it still a raw squat because knee wraps give stability but do not assists with the entire lift like a squat suit.
    Exactly! They don't assist with the entire lift, they make you more stable and give you confindence that you're not going to blow your knees out when you squat deep into the hole with heavy weight. They do obviously give rebound, but it's your raw strength controlling the weight down and pushing the weight up.

  26. #25
    Senior Member hulk242's Avatar
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    Also, of the guys that are top dawgs in raw that have posted here and wear wraps, they are demonstrating pure brute strength. Isn't that really what we are after...
    Last edited by hulk242; 12-16-2010 at 07:08 PM.
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