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Thread: Tired of being skinny?

  1. #26
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    I agree for the most part... to gain muscle at the fastest rate possible, you do have to get your eat on. And accepting a small layer of minimal fat should probably be expected. But I also laugh when I see fatties yelling at skinny people to JUST EAT MOOOARR!!11 as the answer that has anything to do with training. There gets to be a point where bulking just makes people end up gaining way too much body fat and end up tubby instead of muscular.

    I agree with sean. Something in the middle works out the best. i.e bulking a little and getting a small layer of fat, and then cutting a little. I'd rather do smaller cycles than become obese for a couple years and then have to sign up for the biggest loser to see all that muscle I built.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

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  2. #27
    Senior Member Phenom's Avatar
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    Rippetoe:

    "In every weight room in all the countries of the world since the dawn of training with weights, the single biggest distraction from the actual task at hand has been abs. "
    Age: 23 - Weight: 237 lbs - Height: 6'1''

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  3. #28
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenom View Post
    Rippetoe:

    "In every weight room in all the countries of the world since the dawn of training with weights, the single biggest distraction from the actual task at hand has been abs. "
    Great quote!
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  4. #29
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenom View Post
    Rippetoe:

    "In every weight room in all the countries of the world since the dawn of training with weights, the single biggest distraction from the actual task at hand has been abs. "
    Unless the task at hand is to actually get abs or lose fat :P
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  5. #30
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    The problem is when these said skinny kids weigh 165lbs and say they "cant gain muscle" If you aren't gaining muscle, and aren't even gaining weight, the answer is simple, you need to eat MOOOARRR!!!

    Also, when athletes sacrifice performance because they want "hawt abzz" thats just silly.

    Not to mention the unrealistic expectations people have based on the media and magazines. They see a guy that is 250+ lbs with 4% BF and think this is achievable. In reality they probably need to decide on whether they'd rather be 165lbs and 8% or 220lbs and 15%.

  6. #31
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    The problem is when these said skinny kids weigh 165lbs and say they "cant gain muscle" If you aren't gaining muscle, and aren't even gaining weight, the answer is simple, you need to eat MOOOARRR!!!

    Also, when athletes sacrifice performance because they want "hawt abzz" thats just silly.

    Not to mention the unrealistic expectations people have based on the media and magazines. They see a guy that is 250+ lbs with 4% BF and think this is achievable. In reality they probably need to decide on whether they'd rather be 165lbs and 8% or 220lbs and 15%.

    Interesting.. because according to Martin Berkhan’s Model, and Casey Butt’s Frame Size Model, my maximum weight at 5% bodyfat would be about 160 lbs at my height. Both Casey and Martin’s equations are based on top level natural bodybuilders as well.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Interesting.. because according to Martin Berkhan’s Model, and Casey Butt’s Frame Size Model, my maximum weight at 5% bodyfat would be about 160 lbs at my height. Both Casey and Martin’s equations are based on top level natural bodybuilders as well.
    Were you questioning something, or just pointing out the similarity?

  8. #33
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    Were you questioning something, or just pointing out the similarity?
    Well, you said 165 lbs at 8% bf which is close to 160 lbs at 5% bf.

    I'm pointing it out. Many people have unrealistic goals or ideas about what they should weigh.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Well, you said 165 lbs at 8% bf which is close to 160 lbs at 5% bf.

    I'm pointing it out. Many people have unrealistic goals or ideas about what they should weigh.
    Oh ok. I was just confused by what you said. I just completely made up those numbers to make my point.

    I would love to be 280lbs and 6% BF. But i'd also like to be 6'6". I dont think any of those are going to happen. For the time being, I do the best I can.

  10. #35
    Senior Member DontTakeEmOff31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjd2121 View Post
    Be prepared to either alter your skinny boy pants or purchase larger waist sizes.

    Eating enough will be harder than any of your workouts
    Way too true

  11. #36
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    If you want to build some muscle, then get as far away from your fat phobia as you can get. Don't be afraid to let your mid section soften up, knowing that under that layer of fatty goodness there are some real muscles being built.

    How many of you have been at this for a few years with very little to show for it? Are you going to spend the next few years doing the same thing? Put down the plate of chicken and broccoli and pick up the steak, potatos and ice cream
    I generally agree, but can we put some more specific numbers on it? Very few people can put on 2lbs of muscle a month, at least not for long, so there's no reason for everyone to try putting on 5lbs of bodyweight a month. I'd say skinny guys need enough good food to fuel the muscle growth, and then a little more, but not to overdo it as long as the scale is moving up.

    What I'm asking is, what is the acceptable rate of weight gain for a new lifter? 3lbs a month? A pound a week?
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  12. #37
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx View Post
    I generally agree, but can we put some more specific numbers on it? Very few people can put on 2lbs of muscle a month, at least not for long, so there's no reason for everyone to try putting on 5lbs of bodyweight a month. I'd say skinny guys need enough good food to fuel the muscle growth, and then a little more, but not to overdo it as long as the scale is moving up.

    What I'm asking is, what is the acceptable rate of weight gain for a new lifter? 3lbs a month? A pound a week?
    I would say a beginner in their first year of training might get 2 lbs of LBM per month. This isn't dry muscle. This accounts for glycogen/water too. So, ideally, this would mean .5-1 lb per week of weight gain. I'd hedge closer to 1 lb though to account for water and crap - literally.

    But after being a novice, it's always interesting to see people assume they have the same potential for muscle gains and then therefore put on the same rate of weight gain. You'll see people say "You only gained 5 lbs? I gained 15 lbs in a month on my bulk!" My first thought is: Good job fatty.

    I'm not saying it's like that here on WBB, but many sites, many threads, people almost act as a support group for becoming lards and pretending most of it is muscle. This is also why I love to read the advice of people squatting more than 500+ lbs. They get into forms, hip-dominant, sheer force, hip drive, things like that. It sure beats the advice of someone coming up with, "Well.. hmm.. have you tried stuffing your face more??"

    But don't get me wrong, to gain the optimum rate of muscle, you probably do need to accumulate a "winter-layer".
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  13. #38
    Rory Parker Behemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx View Post
    I generally agree, but can we put some more specific numbers on it? Very few people can put on 2lbs of muscle a month, at least not for long, so there's no reason for everyone to try putting on 5lbs of bodyweight a month. I'd say skinny guys need enough good food to fuel the muscle growth, and then a little more, but not to overdo it as long as the scale is moving up.

    What I'm asking is, what is the acceptable rate of weight gain for a new lifter? 3lbs a month? A pound a week?
    The acceptable rate is in large part the one you're comfortable with. Both you and OffRoad have very good points and are both right.

    I hate fat phobics who never eat consistently over maintenance and you watch them spin their wheel for 3 years looking the same.

    But on the other hand it bothers me when people can't keep their bodyfat in check. Unless they're not lifting for aesthetics whatsoever. If they just want to be big and powerful and as long as they're healthy I fully understand. But just like it's a shame to spin your wheel not eating enough, it's a shame to get too soft and never actually show the muscle you built.

    Certainly do not bulk to the point where you are really uncomfortable in your body. That's ass-backwards IMO. But one has to accept they're not going to look like june in december if they want to get bigger.

    Stipulating a number weight is pretty difficult. It's going to be very different depending on ones tendency to fat gain. After any initially bloating and filling out (like post diet where you'll gain 15 pounds in one week easy if you're not slow) and one is settled into a more consistent rate. I can't see anymore than maybe 2-3lbs a month being productive for most (if even that, unless they're purely ecto).
    Last edited by Behemoth; 01-21-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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  14. #39
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    My quick thoughts on BULKING (not to be read as a slight increase in calories)...

    1. Don't bulk until it is required by your efforts. In other words, wait until you are aproaching new territory and really pushing the PRs.

    2. Proper bulking does not take a scale. If your efforts are high and you have trained the appetite, just start eating and don't stop. Don't stress over the weight and your abs.
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  15. #40
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    My quick thoughts on BULKING (not to be read as a slight increase in calories)...

    1. Don't bulk until it is required by your efforts. In other words, wait until you are aproaching new territory and really pushing the PRs.

    2. Proper bulking does not take a scale. If your efforts are high and you have trained the appetite, just start eating and don't stop. Don't stress over the weight and your abs.
    I agree with a lot of this. But bulking really is just a slight increase in Calories imho

    I don't think there is anything wrong with being precise and using scales though. I myself never gained weight when I just ate and ate and didnt stop. I had to actually break down everything I was doing and count Calories to make sure I got enough.

    I mean, whats the number one complaint about someone really skinny who cant gain weight? "I am always eating like a pig and I can't seem to gain any weight!!"

    I like the part about waiting until it is needed. I think a lot of people just starting out don't really need to try and pile on Calories. They would do better off just lifting and eating when they are hungry..at least for awhile.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  16. #41
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    You aren't getting the big picture...

    You consistantly eat in a slight increase with an eye on total calories, macros, and watching the scale...this is just the average eating.

    A true bulk is different; It's an all-out eating binge, over and above your usual eating schedule. This is only done when required and for shorter periods of time, usually towards the end of a cycle when things are extra heavy and you are entering new territory.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    You aren't getting the big picture...

    You consistantly eat in a slight increase with an eye on total calories, macros, and watching the scale...this is just the average eating.

    A true bulk is different; It's an all-out eating binge, over and above your usual eating schedule. This is only done when required and for shorter periods of time, usually towards the end of a cycle when things are extra heavy and you are entering new territory.
    I'm pretty sure I am. But what you said is not average eating. For many people, it is difficult to even gain modest weight. Keeping an eye on total Calories, macros, and the scale is advanced for most people. I mean, you pretty much just named the entire recipe of nutrition..and thats an advanced thing. Being able to manipulate macros up and down and tracking Calories pretty much guarantees success.

    Average eating would be where someone just simply eats whatever. Average eating leads to almost no results for a lot of people. They are the ones who spin their wheels.

    I disagree about a true bulk. I think bulking has varying degrees. Someone purposely trying to gain weight, but with a modest amount of weight gained, is still bulking. Sorry, but thats reality.

    Besides that, if you are hitting your genetic ceiling, going for a "true-bulk" isnt going to make you bypass genetics and suddenly gain a ton of muscle or whatever. You'd be on your way to gaining lots of fat. You don't need to become a blob of lard because you are bulking.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  18. #43
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    My thought is that body fat is simply feul. I think every individual has a specific average, and maximum body fat percentage unique to them and their life style.

    For example, Afrikan bushmen can pack on several pounds of fat on their buttocks and thighs which would sustain them during the frequent lean times they experience. The psychos who swim the English Channel train on empty stomachs, but in the days before the swim they pack on as much pure fat as possible. if I remember correctly, a 150 pound male would burn like 12,000 calories in the swim.

    I think I would have never made progress weightlifting if I had kept the scale.

  19. #44
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    I'm pretty sure I am. .
    Pretty sure you aren't. In fact after reading your response, I'm sure you aren't.
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  20. #45
    Rory Parker Behemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutter View Post
    I think every individual has a specific average, and maximum body fat percentage unique to them and their life style.
    No doubt setpoints are real. To what extent (if at all) they can be manipulated without drugs is something I've speculated for the longest time. Scientifically it would seem that ones genetic setpoint is static. Anecdotally I've seen (what appears to be) evidence otherwise, but cannot rule out the possibility that it is nothing more than a subconscious behavioral instinct re-learned that now somewhat limits the individuals over consumption without them realizing and consequently putting forth no more conscious effort than previous attempts of bodyfat control.

    The concept of a maximum bodyfat that one is genetically capable of I would strongly argue against. Though the body does greatly strive for homeostasis, I would argue most all individuals would be genetically capable of reaching extreme obesity given enough food. I think you could put a Ethiopian runner on an IV of crisco and plump him up just fine.
    Last edited by Behemoth; 01-21-2011 at 06:18 PM.
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  21. #46
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Pretty sure you aren't. In fact after reading your response, I'm sure you aren't.
    Then why don't you recap your big picture point now. Hows that sound? I'll stand by the rest of my responses as being accurate because I don't agree with the other things you said..big picture or not. *rolls eyes*
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  22. #47
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
    No doubt setpoints are real. To what extent (if at all) they can be manipulated without drugs is something I've speculated for the longest time. Scientifically it would seem that ones genetic setpoint is static. Anecdotally I've seen (what appears to be) evidence otherwise, but cannot rule out the possibility that it is nothing more than a subconscious behavioral instinct re-learned that now somewhat limits the individuals over consumption without them realizing and consequently putting forth no more conscious effort than previous attempts of bodyfat control.

    The concept of a maximum bodyfat that one is genetically capable of I would strongly argue against. Though the body does greatly strive for homeostasis, I would argue most all individuals would be genetically capable of reaching extreme obesity given enough food. I think you could put a Ethiopian runner on an IV of crisco and plump him up just fine.
    Beat me to it about the setpoints.

    Behemoth, about set points, do you feel that when people get reeeaally fat, and actually create additional fat cells, that their set point is then changed? It seems like it logically would because there would be additional fat cells that could hypertrophy.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  23. #48
    Rory Parker Behemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Beat me to it about the setpoints.

    Behemoth, about set points, do you feel that when people get reeeaally fat, and actually create additional fat cells, that their set point is then changed? It seems like it logically would because there would be additional fat cells that could hypertrophy.
    Yes, it does seem logical. It's not something I would want to believe, but it may well exist. Especially since leptin is relative to fat cell quantity if I'm not mistaken.
    Last edited by Behemoth; 01-21-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
    No doubt setpoints are real. To what extent (if at all) they can be manipulated without drugs is something I've speculated for the longest time. Scientifically it would seem that ones genetic setpoint is static. Anecdotally I've seen (what appears to be) evidence otherwise, but cannot rule out the possibility that it is nothing more than a subconscious behavioral instinct re-learned that now somewhat limits the individuals over consumption without them realizing and consequently putting forth no more conscious effort than previous attempts of bodyfat control.

    The concept of a maximum bodyfat that one is genetically capable of I would strongly argue against. Though the body does greatly strive for homeostasis, I would argue most all individuals would be genetically capable of reaching extreme obesity given enough food. I think you could put a Ethiopian runner on an IV of crisco and plump him up just fine.
    Good catch. I should have stated '...maximum HEALTHY body fat' as in the max amount one can carry with out significant negative effects.

  25. #50
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
    Yes, it does seem logical. It's not something I would want to believe, but it may well exist. Especially since leptin is relative to fat cell quantity if I'm not mistaken.
    Yes, leptin levels are linked to fat cell quantity.

    Hmm, yea, I haven't really read anything concrete about setpoints changing as a result of additional fat cell creation so I'm not sure either. It just seems to make sense. On the brighter side of things, from what I've gathered and read, the body typically hypertrophies existing fat cells well before the creation of new cells occurs. But I have no idea how fat someone would need to become for it to happen.
    Last edited by RichMcGuire; 01-21-2011 at 06:51 PM.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

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