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Thread: losing weight while maintaining strength

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    losing weight while maintaining strength

    Any diets/nutrional programs you guys know of where you can lose weight while maintaing strength. I have some tht have worked for me but im sick and bored with them

    for clarification i do mean weight not just fat, though fat is obviosly preferrable. i dont care about muscle mass or looks just numbers Ive done reasearch so i know the numbers i want and they arent even close to world class so i know they are possible
    any help or disscussion is appreciated

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    You have a program and nutritional regime dialed in to work but you're simply "bored with it"? Pick another sport or hobby. If you can't have fun when things are on point then hopping around for the **** of it is only going to decrease your success and enjoyment.

    Why on earth would you not care about the composition of the weight you lose? Do you not understand that a loss in muscle mass will directly equate to a loss in strength while on a diet?
    Last edited by Behemoth; 03-07-2011 at 09:57 AM.
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    from your profile pic you seem to be a bodybuilder that is not me that is nowhere in my goals. I will keep my diets that work and continue to cycle them in, i'm simply lookin for more options. just like lifting a routine might work for you, but you still cycle in other routines and try other things thats how you progress and adapt

    also i said preferably fat to be lost.

    i have seen people with similar body styles but one having less muscle mass be stonger. yes i know to put on strength you have to have muscle mass, but people dont get every ounce of strength out of the muscle they have

    an example would be the 198lb powerlifter is stronger than a 300lb BB even though he has significantly less muscle mass, strictly talking max strength

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    im not trying to argue im looking for help and ideas

    i love lifting i wish there was more time in the day to lift but honestly cardio and diet arent that fun for me but you need all 3

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    Well to be honest, I think a diet program is a little silly. Just learn what true healthy eating is, restrict your calories and lose weight. I don't see what the fuss is about. Get your protein, fat and carbs in, shoot for 1g of protein per LBM and you'll be fine.

    You don't need a "miraculous" diet program to lose weight. It ain't rocket science; people just make it seem that way.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-07-2011 at 12:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
    Well to be honest, I think a diet program is a little silly. Just learn what true healthy eating is, restrict your calories and lose weight. I don't see what the fuss is about. Get your protein, fat and carbs in, shoot for 1g of protein per LBM and you'll be fine.

    You don't need a "miraculous" diet program to lose weight. It ain't rocket science; people just make it seem that way.
    This is essentially what I've found as well. Micro-managing every tiny thing has yielded basically nothing vs. simply eating reasonably as you said.

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    Yeah... I'm that awesome. Captain Awesome's Avatar
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    Simplicity is key. We often over-complicate things and inhibit our own progress. I see it every single day, all day long. Building muscle itself is nothing astronomical; its really quite easy. And while science can help us achieve better results, it doesn't need to hinder our ability to just keep it simple. Long story short to building muscle; food, consistency and tension. That's why we see people who don't know a damn bit about nutrition or fitness, yet they are huge or ripped. I mean part is genetics, but the base is still the same. I don't care how awesome your genetics may be, you're not building any substantial muscle without the 3 key factors above. If 1 of those factors is missing, no progress can be made.

    And to be honest, from all the research I've done, and conversations I've been involved in (with very educated people), science tends to prove that simplicity surpasses complexity. Nutrition related facts are by far the biggest advocate to proving that little fact.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-07-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
    And to be honest, from all the research I've done, and conversations I've been involved in (with very educated people), science tends to prove that simplicity surpasses complexity. Nutrition related facts are by far the biggest advocate to proving that little fact.
    this is kind of a baseless statement being that the effective route of simplicity will encompass the major benchmarks that are established by the details of complexity. the benefit of simplicity seems to be that one can make the most of the least -- cost/benefit ratio. so who are you and what very educated people are you talking about that gives you the ability to assert that simplicity surpasses complexity? clearly a bb/misc member. you very well may be a credible lifter with real lifts and dietary success, i am curious more than anything else

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    Quote Originally Posted by f=ma View Post
    this is kind of a baseless statement being that the effective route of simplicity will encompass the major benchmarks that are established by the details of complexity. the benefit of simplicity seems to be that one can make the most of the least -- cost/benefit ratio.
    Sort of, yeah. That doesn't make the principle behind it anything significant. Again, eat, sleep, lift. However, there are more effective methods than others, and that's when we get into different programs, different basic dietary habits - stuff like that. Again, most of those are nothing overly complex, in comarison to other things that people create.

    so who are you and what very educated people are you talking about that gives you the ability to assert that simplicity surpasses complexity? clearly a bb/misc member. you very well may be a credible lifter with real lifts and dietary success, i am curious more than anything else
    I'm a nobody; so don't worry about it... If you want to know who I talk to, you wouldn't know them because they aren't famous, they've never written a book, they've never written an article. What they have done was study nutrition and fitness for the last 15+ years, buy a ton of books, and pay a good bit of money to view full reviews of studies and not just the abstracts.

    If you wanted to know where I get my information from; pubmed, Lyle McDonald, Alan Aragon, various other research reviewers and known professionals. I base my opinions on information I have read, where I draw my own conclusions. My conclusion has been that keeping things simple is often more effective for the vast majority of trainees. Those who need specialised programs, dietary habits and exercise programs are advanced/elite athletes who won't make progress without it. The rest of us could get by just fine by following basic rules, and we prove this day in and day out. That is why we don't have just 1 way to train, or 1 way to eat.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 05:42 AM.
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    well, i dont feel like getting into some diatribe on what anecdotal source you're citing. i will summarize by saying that complexity in dieting and attention to detail will vastly outperform simplicity, definitively. as a regular reader of bodyrecomp et al, i feel you are completely misrepresenting alan a and lyle mcd if you are citing them, specifically, for your premise that simplicity surpasses complexity. i think what you originally meant to say is that simplicity is an effective choice for most lifters who should not yet be concerned with the complexity of details behind dietary success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
    science tends to prove that simplicity surpasses complexity
    Last edited by f=ma; 03-08-2011 at 05:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by f=ma View Post
    well, i dont feel like getting into some diatribe on what anecdotal source you're citing. i will summarize by saying that complexity in dieting and attention to detail will vastly outperform simplicity, definitively. as a regular reader of bodyrecomp et al, i feel you are completely misrepresenting alan a and lyle mcd if you are citing them, specifically, for your premise that simplicity surpasses complexity. i think what you originally meant to say is that simplicity is an effective choice for most lifters who should not yet be concerned with the complexity of details behind dietary success.
    For the most part yes. I believe you and I have different definitions of complexity, and that's more of where our differences are. Or at least for this particular discussion.

    But, I think I'm not wording things correctly, and I think that's causing our dispute. I am concerned with dietary habits, but its not about specific types of carbohydrates, low or high GI or perfect ratios, meal frequency, nutrient timing, etc.. The people who we give advice to on here are the average lifter, so why would they need specialized advice. Otherwise we just give them information that they don't need now, half assed information that isn't fully applicable without the understanding behind it, and it just inhibits them from accomplishing their goals.

    IMO, if you eat 3 clean square meals a day, utilize compound movements along with some isolated movements, get plenty of rest and maintain a calorie controlled diet - you will be jakt and/or ripped. How much you eat and what not will depend on your goals. Sure we could get more complex than this, but for the vast majority its not worth it. It is a simple foundation that will lead them to success.

    If you want to be a pro bodybuilder, that's another story to an extent, and will require more trainee specific details, because its at an elite level.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 06:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
    IMO, if you eat 3 clean square meals a day, utilize compound movements along with some isolated movements, get plenty of rest and maintain a calorie controlled diet - you will be jakt and/or ripped. How much you eat and what not will depend on your goals. Sure we could get more complex than this, but for the vast majority its not worth it. It is a simple foundation that will lead them to success.

    If you want to be a pro bodybuilder, that's another story to an extent, and will require more trainee specific details, because its at an elite level.
    Funny you mention this because I run into it everyday. Unfortunately with my position as a Navy Command Fitness Leader, our primary focus is those who are out of current standards which are usually lazy, unmotivated, and uneducated (regarding physical fitness). They are forced to workout 5 days a week in order for the Navy to say "we did what we could" to guide them back into standards because the alternative is their career ending. Harsh but I agree whole-heartedly... My point being that when I 1st started, I would exhaust monumental time and effort to explaining the basic fundamentals of training/nutrition/recovery to them, and after about after 10 min, maybe 2-3 out of 20 were still paying attention. This job was very taxing because I cared too much about helping everyone I could, even if they didn't want to help themselves. Now I just focus on those who want to learn and the rest can just coast. This proves most rewarding because even if I can help 1 person, my job is worth it. Physical fitness can TOTALLY change someones life, seen it time and time again... "You can show them the door, but you can't walk through it for them" Yes I just used that quote

    I also agree 150% with f=ma that their is NO comparison between simplicity and complexity as far as results. In addition, there are few out there that will continue to see gains after they step out of "nebulous gains" without devoting more attention to the 3 aspects mentioned above. Even a new lifter will be better fit with all the right tools in the beginning, assuming we don't overwhelm them. This is why I just provide basic tools to those inquiring, and on here article links work very well . Then if the person puts in the effort and has more complex questions, then thats when we can come together and guide him/her in the right direction...

    There are many educated people on these forums who hopefully keep an open mind because we NEVER stop learning, and even more importantly should never stop teaching... This is why I have NO SHAME in asking questions, no matter how basic it is...

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    I think some here are confusing "simplicity" with doing next to nothing. For example, a simple dietary approach would be to get enough protein, get your overall caloric intake close to where it needs to be, and choosing mostly "healthy" foods. You can then modulate your calories my increasing or decreasing portion sizes of your primary carb and fat foods to get the desired results (weight gain or weight loss). Being complex is something more like having to make every meal exactly perfect with very precise amounts of every macronutrient, having to eat precisely at the right time (i.e. within a few minutes), calculating the precise ratio of casein to whey in every single protein shake, not being able to eat out ever because you can't get the precise macronutrients for that meal, having to drink your post-workout shake within 2 minutes of your last set, always having to eat carbs at only at certain times or never ever eating carbs at a certain time, etc... I could come up with a million more. It's just not necessary to have that level of OCD about food for the average trainee. Train hard with a proven program focused on the basics and eat a reasonably good diet and you will likely get 99.9% of the results you would by going crazy with every tiny detail. If you want to spend that much time and effort go ahead, but that level of detail is necessary only in rare cases.
    Edit: I do enjoy reading about and discussing some of the finer details, I just don't find they are all that applicable to most trainees.
    I also spent years in the military counseling people regarding weight loss. The ones who were most successful were those who simply did the basics consistently over time, not those who got bogged down in the insignificant details.
    Last edited by Sean S; 03-08-2011 at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    I think some here are confusing "simplicity" with doing next to nothing. For example, a simple dietary approach would be to get enough protein, get your overall caloric intake close to where it needs to be, and choosing mostly "healthy" foods. You can then modulate your calories my increasing or decreasing portion sizes of your primary carb and fat foods to get the desired results (weight gain or weight loss). Being complex is something more like having to make every meal exactly perfect with very precise amounts of every macronutrient, having to eat precisely at the right time (i.e. within a few minutes), calculating the precise ratio of casein to whey in every single protein shake, not being able to eat out ever because you can't get the precise macronutrients for that meal, having to drink your post-workout shake within 2 minutes of your last set, always having to eat carbs at only at certain times or never ever eating carbs at a certain time, etc... I could come up with a million more. It's just not necessary to have that level of OCD about food for the average trainee. Train hard with a proven program focused on the basics and eat a reasonably good diet and you will likely get 99.9% of the results you would by going crazy with every tiny detail. If you want to spend that much time and effort go ahead, but that level of detail is necessary only in rare cases.
    Edit: I do enjoy reading about and discussing some of the finer details, I just don't find they are all that applicable to most trainees.
    I also spent years in the military counseling people regarding weight loss. The ones who were most successful were those who simply did the basics consistently over time, not those who got bogged down in the insignificant details.
    Exactly my point; I'm terrible at wording things that I'm trying to say. Awesome post. Too many people get caught up in the insignificant details of things, and they simply waste their time when their focus could be put to use elsewhere.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 12:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean S View Post
    For example, a simple dietary approach would be to get enough protein, get your overall caloric intake close to where it needs to be, and choosing mostly "healthy" foods. You can then modulate your calories my increasing or decreasing portion sizes of your primary carb and fat foods to get the desired results (weight gain or weight loss)
    for the beginner, the above is rocket science. if that were simple, this forum would never have any threads nor questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by f=ma View Post
    for the beginner, the above is rocket science. if that were simple, this forum would never have any threads nor questions.
    True enough, but beyond ignorance it is rather simple. Its not as though you have to mutate the food for it to be healthy; you just have to learn what healthy is and apply it. <<< Rather simple to learn, but it takes time.
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    fair enough -- i think all parties can agree that grasping even the simple aspects of effective dieting can by very difficult for a beginner. i'm satisfied :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by f=ma View Post
    fair enough -- i think all parties can agree that grasping even the simple aspects of effective dieting can by very difficult for a beginner. i'm satisfied :P
    Definitely. I can remember asking so many questions that I was driving my buddy absolutely nuts. Half of them were questions that would just go in circles for email after email. One answer would lead to ten questions and over implicating the importance of minor details to the point that it was exhausting.

    When I help to coach others, I try to make things as simplistic as I can, and often do not offer an explanation. While I know its wrong, sometimes its just the best way to get people to do the right thing without all of the complications I went through. Although when people insist on knowing why, I'll explain it and then explain why they shouldn't read too much into it.

    I'm by no means saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that for practical applications for most, basic knowledge is generally most effective.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 01:37 PM.
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    Interesting discussion. I think getting sub 10% or whatever is much more simple than getting below 7 or 8%. Your body is more willing to fight it. So I can see what everyone said as being pretty valid. When I first got ripped, I did it at an OCD level. Looking back at it, I wish I would have just reduced Calories and did some cardio along with maintaining strength levels. Since I'm getting rdy to do it again, I guess I'll find out.

    Also, I think simplicity is defined as per the audience being addressed. F=ma hinted at this. For example, at Perkins, I remember this middle aged couple ordering a couple of the mammoth muffins instead of pancakes. They commented that they were actually pretty good for you because they said 0g trans fats. The only problem is, 0g trans fats doesnt really mean zero. It could be .4g per serving or whatever. On top of that, these damn muffins check in at about 600-900 Calories of mostly processed sugar.

    Telling those people to just "eat less" would never work.
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    Yeah getting down below 10% body fat can be rather tricky sometimes. It really depends on how the body reacts to what you do. And its one thing to just get below 10% and another to walk at 10% or less everyday.

    And to your muffin story; telling someone to just eat less is such an understatement. While it is simple, and I hear idiots recommend it day in and day out, it doesn't tell the whole truth. I normally have a few recommendations for people who are looking to just be generally healthy, and they can be applied to weight gain or weight loss.

    1.) Avoid getting the bulk of your food from processed sources.
    2.) Keep you calories in check with your goals.
    3.) Drink lots of water.
    4.) Avoid calorie containing drinks, other than milk, but limit your milk intake as well. (some people will just pound it down.)
    5.) Get 3-5 cups of veggies a day, and 2-3 cups of fruit daily.
    6.) Eat lean cut meats.
    7.) Get between .8-1g of protein per pound of LBM
    8.) Don't allow your intakes to be excessive and get variety.
    9.) Take a multi and fish oil supplement daily.
    10.) Exercise regularly and consistently.

    ^^^ I know I'm leaving things out that I generally recommend, but these are 10 basic principles that people can follow. With the above, it'd be pretty hard to mess up unless you are deliberately trying to be stupid. Lol. All of those principles are scientifically supported from research I've done, but none of that research is important for practical application. However, its not as simple or ignorant as telling someone to eat less and do more. Adjust the calories up or down for fat-loss or muscle gain. Obviously there are more things that go into those goals, and that's where I get a little more specific, but again, nothing that's overly specific and designed just for them; unless there is a preexisting condition.

    Could a tailor made nutrition and exercise plan be put into effect for them to meet their goals? Sure. But unless their goals are aspiring to be a professional bodybuilder, athlete or figure competitor, there's no need for it.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 02:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by f=ma View Post
    fair enough -- i think all parties can agree that grasping even the simple aspects of effective dieting can by very difficult for a beginner. i'm satisfied :P
    LOL^^ It really depends on the person as you guys are saying. Case and point: I'm currently training (personally) with two good friends who are adhering to my terms. I say this because they are both novice lifters. So I'm taking the time to do all the "Complicated" stuff for them via Livestrong.com (food/fitness/weight tracker) and calipers and explaining it little by little. When we started I told them to take their Nitrean for a pre-workout and Opticen for a Post-workout and didn't explain why. On day 1 of our new routine (DT ) 1 of them asked why take a shake before and after. They were both interested in the simple response of supplying the muscles with nutrients during and after the workout, but when I moved into insulin, muscle protein synthesis and the duration etc... they both looked at me cross-eyed and just said "nevermind, we'll just do it" lmao.

    When helping new lifters, ESPECIALLY young ones, we can easily get caught up in firing too much information and open "pandoras box" for their minds and end up confusing them more than helping them. I mean, we could probably tell one of these guys to go take 3 capsules of Green Tea Extract a day and you'll add 30lbs of muscle in 5 weeks and they'll do it!! Again this is why I too try to keep things simple and just provide them some references to do some research on their own. I found this successful because the person will seek out and learn as far as he wants to learn, or he might just take the shake before and after and be happy as to not really knowing why.

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    Yeah... I'm that awesome. Captain Awesome's Avatar
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    I would say that my biggest hurdle with people who want to change is their media-driven prior knowledge. Eggs, cholesterol, saturated fat intake etc.. Ah, the stupid arguments I get into from time to time.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 02:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
    Yeah getting down below 10% body fat can be rather tricky sometimes. It really depends on how the body reacts to what you do. And its one thing to just get below 10% and another to walk at 10% or less everyday.

    It is tricky indeed because your body requires a certain % bf and fights to maintain homeostasis.

    And to your muffin story; telling someone to just eat less is such an understatement. While it is simple, and I hear idiots recommend it day in and day out, it doesn't tell the whole truth. I normally have a few recommendations for people who are looking to just be generally healthy, and they can be applied to weight gain or weight loss.

    True, but its simple advice often given. "Eat less than you are now and move more"

    1.) Avoid getting the bulk of your food from processed sources.
    2.) Keep you calories in check with your goals.
    3.) Drink lots of water.
    4.) Avoid calorie containing drinks, other than milk, but limit your milk intake as well. (some people will just pound it down.)
    5.) Get 3-5 cups of veggies a day, and 2-3 cups of fruit daily.
    6.) Eat lean cut meats.
    7.) Get between .8-1g of protein per pound of LBM
    8.) Don't allow your intakes to be excessive and get variety.
    9.) Take a multi and fish oil supplement daily.
    10.) Exercise regularly and consistently.



    .
    Your list would probably help for someone to get sub 10% but I think the biggest problem would be #2 when people try and keep Calories in check with goals. Thats a huge gray cloud for most people. Its almost as void as saying "eat less" I mean, if I had told that to the couple eating the mammoth muffins, it would probably have gotten the same results, lol. For that reason, I think Calorie levels do need to be much more specific.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Your list would probably help for someone to get sub 10% but I think the biggest problem would be #2 when people try and keep Calories in check with goals. Thats a huge gray cloud for most people. Its almost as void as saying "eat less" I mean, if I had told that to the couple eating the mammoth muffins, it would probably have gotten the same results, lol. For that reason, I think Calorie levels do need to be much more specific.
    I agree with that. That's where specifics for the goals comes into play. I mean we can work with a 500 calorie deficit or surplus, or we could go extreme and talk about 1500 or less calorie diets for someone who is 240 pounds. Lol. But we both know where each other are coming from.
    Last edited by Captain Awesome; 03-08-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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    -Eat protein every few hours.
    -Eat multiple times per day .
    -Eat complex carbohydrate sources with higher amounts around your workout
    -If you eat fat, make it good fat, and watch the calories.

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